Source
r/WorkReform•
simulatedmind

Boss says I'm late when time clock says I'm not

💬 Advice Needed

I had a meeting with my manager the other day, and he shows me a list of times that I've clocked in for the past 6 months. In almost all of these instances, I am no more than three minutes late. Here's the thing... so the time clock at work rounds to seven minutes. For example: If I clock in at 7:53am, it will round forward to 8:00am and if I clock in at 8:07am, it will round back to 8:00am.

Our time clock is in the center of a large building on the basement floor and even if I arrive at work at the time I am supposed to be there, then I end up clocking in 2 or 3 minutes after I enter the building.

He expects me to show up early enough to clock in at the start of my shift, but I have a problem with this because if I arrive early to do so, then I am not being paid for that time that I am there.

I can't think of what reason the time clock is set up to round back and forth, other than to be a grace period for employees, which he has claimed is not and that there is no grace period.

It's not crucial for me to be there at exactly the start of my shift and clocking in 3 minutes after doesn't affect the work at all.

I'm probably going to end up leaving the job, but in the meantime, what should I do?

Posted Feb 9, 2023, 1:44 AM UTC

6139
twoscoop•

Tell the boss that he is telling you to commit fraud.

60
Jojoyojimbi•

do not do this, instead, tell the boss that you'd like him to clarify what you'd like him to have you do in writing, then take that memo to the labor lawyer you employ after he gives it to you

36
DonaIdTrurnp•

Assuming US jurisdiction: get a lawyer

If you can, also get it in writing that you are being written up for being late but within the rounding of the time clock. You can do that by sending an email to your boss “clarifying the conversation” from a work email, or by a text message, it doesn’t have to be printed on paper.

Taking averse action based on being on the other side of the rounding makes the rounding of the time clock illegal; the rounding is allowed based on the assumption that it’s a small amount of time and will average out to no effect. Writing people up for being “late” makes the rounding literal wage theft because it’s a ratchet: when people show up a few minutes early, they do unpaid work, and it doesn’t average out because they aren’t just as likely to show up a few minutes later when they get written up. (They’re also almost certainly stealing minutes on the end of shift the same way).

Get your lawyer to make the official complaint and lawsuit quickly, because any termination immediately after making a wage theft complaint is presumed to be in retaliation, resulting in an additional cause of action.

If not in the US: contact a lawyer anyway, but all of my advice is specific to places subject to the FLSA.

51
Usagi_Shinobi•

Ask the boss why the time clock is set up two to three minutes away from the entrance. Tell him you would be happy to help relocate it so that staff can clock in on arrival, if it's that important for him.

42
bb5e8307•

The boss can’t have it both ways. It can’t be that 5 minutes early is too insignificant to be paid for but 3 minutes late is significant to be penalized for.

The rounding on the clock is an indication that a few minutes is an insignificant amount of time. Like a clock that rounds to the nearest minute or second - you have to put a limit somewhere. If they have a clock that rounds to the nearest 15 they have to accept that for good and for bad.

30
DonaIdTrurnp•

That’s not just the reasonable interpretation, that’s the literal law:

(b) “Rounding” practices. It has been found that in some industries, particularly where time clocks are used, there has been the practice for many years of recording the employees' starting time and stopping time to the nearest 5 minutes, or to the nearest one-tenth or quarter of an hour. Presumably, this arrangement averages out so that the employees are fully compensated for all the time they actually work. For enforcement purposes this practice of computing working time will be accepted, provided that it is used in such a manner that it will not result, over a period of time, in failure to compensate the employees properly for all the time they have actually worked. (Emphasis added)

26
bddgfx•

If you clock in at 7:53 AM, and the punch is altered to incorrectly show a time of an 8 AM punch, that is wage theft, and it’s very illegal.

13
DonaIdTrurnp•

It’s only illegal if the rounding tends to ratchet against the employee; if you can show up anytime in the window and it gets rounded to the closest 15 minutes, that’s just to make bookkeeping easier. But if, as in this case, people are written up for being “late” between 0800 and 0807, that’s a ratcheting effect and it’s wage theft, presumably of 7 minutes per day in the morning and 7 minutes at the end. For someone working 40 hours or more, that’s 21 minutes of pay per day, 105 minutes per week, or about 7 weeks of pay (looking back three years) that’s been stolen. Plus interest and punitive damages.

7
[deleted]•

[deleted]

11
FreedomPaid•

My boss has a good attitude about being late: he'd rather we be late but still there, instead of calling out and not being there at all. As long as we don't make it a habit to show up 10 minutes late every day, a few minutes here or there doesn't matter - what does matter is that we are there.

Personally, I usually show up 2 or 3 minutes late every day- parking is better once the previous shift has left, and I show up ready to rock 'n' roll. One of my coworkers shows up on time and then takes 5 minutes to get his work gear on. If he's allowed to spend five minutes to put boots on, then I'm allowed a few minutes to be late. We're both on the floor getting stuff going at the same time, so to me its fair. It helps that we're in shipping, so there's not much we do that's time sensitive.

3
Aggie956•

But with a life saving surgery of the drs two mins late you can die /s

2
Crystalraf•

so, where I work, we do have a grace period. Can be 7 minutes late, and it's fine. But, be 7 minutes and 30 seconds late, and HR freaks out. We can also be 7 minutes early. Which, in practice means we clock in 7 minutes early, and then clock out 7 minutes early. In effect, there are 14 minutes window to clock in.

Reason? HR has nothing else they can control. They can see the time clock data. But they can't really complain about our work, because they have no idea what we actually do.

2
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
Crystalraf•

i don't mind the 7 minute grace period. That's the way it should be I guess.

What I do mind is being 10 minutes late, and getting disciplined for it. Everyone is late once in a while, and we literally don't get paid for the time we miss. They have a policy where you don't get in trouble if you are late because of weather. But god forbid you sleep in 30 minutes and show up at 6 am instead of 5:30 you could end up getting fired. that just isn't right in my book.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
grenz1•

I have heard this before.

A long time ago, I had a stint as a store opening trainer for a chain of restaurants. This chain was very, very anal about things. They had a 40 page manual they tested people on for washing dishes, for instance. The waiter manual clocked in at a healthy 200 pages and if you hit someone with it, would probably hurt.

One time they started giving us stress for some bullshit.

See, the employee handbook RECOMMENDED everyone be at work 15 minutes early. But they took the RECOMMENDATION as divine law.

So, since we were "trainers" the bosses started writing everyone up unless they were 30 minutes early! Got to set an example! (assholes)

Reasoning was because if the handbook said 15 minutes early, we should be another 15 minutes on top of that. If not, we were late!.

And yes. Some of us got written up for that even though we were not paid for being 30 minutes early. Though they got away with it because store openers were salary.

5
Alywiz•

Probable salary non exempt thought and illegal marked as exempt

7
grenz1•

Could have been.

The person in charge of that particular store opening (it was in San Antonio TX) was already pissing me off and it was the last store I opened for them.

I quit and left halfway through it. I think I quit the company all together a few months after that and just decided to deliver pizzas again. Less stress, less anal retentive bullshit and about as much money (if it didn't later totally destroy my car).

My home store in Mississippi allowed me to grow a beard. It was trimmed and everything. But when I arrived in Texas, they made me immediately head back to the hotel and shave it. Implying i was "nasty" and not "setting a clean cut example". Never mind two of the managers in Texas wore beards. WTF??? So, beards are not for the poors because we are nasty? Yet you got the 4 year degree to be a manager then you aren't "nasty"?

3
DonaIdTrurnp•

Almost certainly anyone who was getting written up was non-exempt from overtime laws, because the exemption is approximately based on whether you can get written up or are doing the writing up.

1
Midori_Schaaf•

15 mins would be a problem, but wouldn't it make sense to be at least 5 minutes early so you arent rushing?

2†
Staff_Guy•

Nothing. Do nothing. Just keep coming in when you do. Leave at the end of your shift. Every time your boss takes you aside to talk about this just let him. And when he is done, point out that he just spent X minutes taking you away from your job to complain about X-Y minutes you were "late." Then go back to work.

You may end up leaving the job. Do not invest in it emotionally. Just let it roll off your back.

2
Crystalraf•

boss has literally nothing else to do.

Needs to be laid off, or find a new project that could be useful.

2
ladylaine14•

I work in payroll and previously worked on the time entry side. Typically the rounding rules are in place to allow for employees to clock in early or a few minutes late and it will not cause any exceptions - meaning you shouldn’t be docked for the time you were late and won’t get paid for the time you were in early. Every work place is different, but that seems super sketch - I would guess that like every manager he has no idea what he is talking about. See if you can speak to someone in payroll or HR that understands your timekeeping system better. The previous place I worked had shifts 7am - 5pm and there were a few “old-timers” that came in at 6 just to have coffee. They punched in, but didn’t actually work until 7 (they didn’t actually start working until 8 or 9 because they had to wait for parts to arrive) the supervisors had to manually adjust the timecards daily for those employees to reflect their correct start time of 7, whereas the employees punching in at 6:55am had no adjustments necessary.

1
Phy44•

I would make the argument to my boss that if I'm not rewarded for being a few minutes early I shouldn't be punished for a few minutes late.

1
Crystalraf•

So, again, this os another case of a so-called 9 to 5 job, when it's really an 8 to 5 job, because of the lunch break, but wait, there's more!

Boss expects you to show up early. for no reason. because he wants you at your desk working at 8 am. which means get there at 7:45.

Same goes at the end of the day. you work until 5. then collect your coat, purse, and walk out at 5:15.

Because boss has nothing better to do than look at a time clock.

1
rahimlee54•

My boss tried that on on me years ago. I just let him know handbook says x. I'm good and if you would like we can ask managers and hr. I never heard it again. If the time reported says youre on time, that's the reference value. Anything past that is a guys feelings.

1
Low_Maintenance9280•

Try it the bosses way for a single pay period just to see if it translates to OT. If so win win, but still seek new employment. My time is auto adjusted to allow time to log in to all work systems (~7mins), clocking in @ scheduled time results in fractional OT, but OT nonetheless. Malicious compliance is the desired result. Good luck on your job search.

0
NorCalHermitage•

Show up three minutes earlier. Usually I side with a worker, but this is too penny ante to count.

-2
G-Kira•

Get to work earlier. If it rounds up your time, then you're safely clocked in and have a few minutes to get situated or use the restroom.

-3†
zmobie•

Downvote me to oblivion, I don’t care, but… Work or not, I can’t stand it when people are late. It’s incredibly disrespectful.

When I worked in retail, I had to be on time so the people on the previous shift could leave on time without having to shuffle everyone in the store around to cover.

Show some respect and empathy for your coworkers and just show up on time.

-3†
DonaIdTrurnp•

If there isn’t overlap in a position, it’s not important that it be constantly staffed.

5
zmobie•

True, but just know that if you’re constantly late, people are gonna think you’re a bit of a prick or a flake.

1
DonaIdTrurnp•

If the time clocks round to 15 minutes and I don’t have anything to do, I’m clocking out on time when the rounding is in my favor, and I’m expecting my replacement to clock in when it’s in his favor. If that’s the same nominal time, the employer is gonna be fine with nobody there, or they’re going to put in a half-hour overlap on the schedule.

If there’s a half hour overlap and you’re late enough to delay someone leaving, thats different from arriving on time.

6
zmobie•

Or you could just show up when you agreed to show up so no one thinks you’re rude.

2†
ScubaNelly•

He did show up "on time" though.

2