r/stupidpolβ€’
Oncefa2

The God of the Wage Gap

IDpol vs. Reality

When it comes to the wage gap, we keep finding more and more explanations that really have nothing to do with "misogyny" or "patriarchy".

We once believed that there was a 30% wage gap, but that has continued to shrink as we've uncovered more and more reasons for it.

At one point we basically had this,

A 30% wage gap

Caused by:

  • The patriarchy!

Then it turned into,

A 10% wage gap

Caused by:

  • Working hours

  • Career choice

  • Work experience

  • Aaaand the patriarchy!

Then we learned even more about it, so now we have a situation that looks like,

A 2% wage gap

Caused by:

  • Working hours

  • Career choice

  • Work experience

  • Salary negotiations

  • Lower productivity

  • Preferring benefits over pay

  • Preferring shorter commutes over pay

  • Unpaid time off

  • Different roles even if the job title is the same

  • ...

  • The patriarchy strikes again!

When really it should look like,

  • Working hours

  • Career choice

  • Work experience

  • Salary negotiations

  • Lower productivity

  • Preferring benefits over pay

  • Preferring shorter commutes over pay

  • Unpaid time off

  • Different roles even if the job title is the same

  • Another unknown factor

  • Another unknown factor

  • Etc

And we even have good ideas for what some of those unknown factors are. We just haven't quantified everything yet (and it might not even technically be possible to do that).

Of course many radfems just go back and say that those factors are caused by the patriarchy. But we often find better explanations when we look in those directions, too. So at a certain point, patriarchy becomes less and less of a useful model as we push it further and further back.

To me this has very clear parallels with the God of the gaps argument. The God of the gaps is usually presented as "we don't understand this natural phenomenon, so God must have done it!".

For example, thousands of years ago, we didn't understand what lightning was. So we said the gods did it.

Well we eventually did figure out how to explain lighting, so we no longer say that the gods do it.

Over the years, that pattern has repeated itself over and over again. The more we look, the less God seems to do in the world. So the conclusion might be that God doesn't do very much at all. That even if we don't currently understand something, that doesn't mean that God is behind it.

I think similar logic can be used when talking about the patriarchy. The patriarchy is really this floppy, nebulous idea that we keep pushing further and further into the shadows. Today it looks more like a conspiracy theory than anything concrete and physical in the real world.

Hence I think a lot of the debates around patriarchy and the wage gap resembles something you'd be more likely to see inside of religious debates than anything factual or scientific.

Posted May 6, 2023, 11:43 PM UTC Β· edited

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DukeSnookumsSpecial Ed πŸ˜β€’

Hence I think a lot of the debates around patriarchy and the wage gap resembles something you'd be more likely to see inside of religious debates than anything factual or scientific.

I think that's an accurate criticism of the "radical feminist" approach and it is more akin to a religion. I would hold up as a counter-example, though, which is that women disproportionately comprise low-wage service work relative to their share of the population. Think food service, fast food, Starbucks. That seems to be what's really driving the gender pay gap: women are concentrated in "lower" sectors of the economy and they're paid less and treated badly. This work is devalued, and much of it is non-union, and it'd be worth looking at how male chauvinist ideas help reinforce that situation.

But that's a particular, concrete example rooted in some material analysis. And we can reason out from that particular example to a general indictment of how capitalism exploits the work of many to enrich the few, and then unite in particular struggles such as campaigns to organize the working class against our common enemy.

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Oncefa2OPMRA πŸ˜­β€’

This work is devalued, and much of it is non-union, and it'd be worth looking at how male chauvinist ideas help reinforce that situation.

There's growing research indicating that women prefer "people" jobs while men prefer "things" jobs.

I left that out of my post because it's, well, technically idpol I guess?

But then so is your statement. So that's an example of where feminists say ok I see your reasoning, but patriarchy is what causes those things! And then when you look at it, you still find something more logical than this nebulous patriarchy idea.

I do agree that at the end of the day it's capitalism though.

If you consider your example, you can see this pretty clearly: it ultimately comes down to supply and demand.

Anyone can take your order at a restaurant. It's not (technically) difficult. You don't need a lot of training and you don't have to be very smart, strong, or anything like that. You just have to show up.

Compare that to like a trades worker who needs to be both physically strong, smart enough to understand technical concepts, and requires a good bit of training before (s)he can do the job.

It's an explanation that exists inside of capitalism, not patriarchy, or "chauvinism", or any of those other feminist dogmas. But that also means it would go away with capitalism as well. So any feminist who claims to care about these issues should give up on their idpol male hatred and instead look at Marxism.

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Ok_Yogurtcloset8915β€’

I don't get why it would be more logical to assume "women just like the jobs that pay less" than to do a more complex analysis of the relationship between the jobs traditionally occupied by women and capital and labor. Could women's lower wages be related to how women were excluded from trade unions in the earlier half of the 20th century, for example? It feels like you're working backwards from the conclusion that the patriarchy is a silly idea to try to find alternative explanations other than that sexism is a real force that has had lasting impacts.

e: for that matter, why are you equating the belief in an all-encompassing patriarchy with the belief that the wage gap exists and has sexism as a cause? It's certainly not necessary to believe in the first to believe in the second, and you can't simply dismiss the reality of the second with your lack of belief in the first.

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intex2C-Minus Phrenology Student πŸͺ€β€’

It's really simple. Service jobs, like waiting tables, are comprised entirely of young people, men and women in equal measure (since they don't have experience), or slightly older women (precisely because they can be part-time, flexible hours, can dip in and out of employment, and one can do such a job while managing a family at home).

So the question is simply why women do most of the family-work at home. And that's because women give birth to children, and men don't.

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tofuwingsβ€’

Impossible to have a discussion about this when people are having a damn cow.

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07mkβ€’

Yes, people take their belief in this very seriously and react very severely when that belief is even hinted at being challenged. Which sorta matches the OP's point exactly...

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[deleted]β€’

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RossumsJohn Maclean-stan πŸ΄σ §σ ’σ ³σ £σ ΄σ Ώβ€’

It's just another example of feminists wanting women to have the ability to make any choice that they want but not to have to deal with the consequences of the choices that they make.

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CheesemanTheCheesedNationalist πŸ“œβ€’

Jarvis, pull up the size of the wage gap per European country, now, pull up a map of female participation in the work force and equalitarianism

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One_Ad_3499Lobster Conservative πŸ¦žβ€’

Men are more willing to sacrifice their life and mental health for corporations. Women who do that earn the same as men. Modern-day capitalism( corporatism) is the root of the problem. Many women cannot sacrifice their time (family, relatives, kids)

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PigeonsArePopularNasty Little Pool Pisser πŸ’¦πŸ˜¦ β€’

Stats are just that, as is methodology.

Any analysis of employment for men and women that does not address "pink collar jobs" - or the push to attain better gender balance in STEM fields - is missing the bigger picture.

Also, this "God" rhetoric is a weird and dumb way to voice your perspective. Keep at it, I guess.

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Oncefa2OPMRA πŸ˜­β€’

This is just blind idpol.

It ignores nursing, education, child care, and the service sector. Which would be like the male equivalent for STEM (there's a handy acronym for it as well).

And then there's this blind religious dogma that an all-powerful patriarchy is responsible for everything.

Hence the God analogy.

If it's not comparable to religion, it's at least comparable to conspiracy theories. It's the left wing version of like qanon, or lizard people.

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PigeonsArePopularNasty Little Pool Pisser πŸ’¦πŸ˜¦ β€’

My point is that you ignored that stuff. So if that's blind idpol, that's your blind idpol.

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Oncefa2OPMRA πŸ˜­β€’

Ignoring idpol is kind of the point my guy.

Like wtf you goin on about?

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PigeonsArePopularNasty Little Pool Pisser πŸ’¦πŸ˜¦ β€’

There are seemingly cultural factors that serve to route women and men to different types of work or fields, it is what ultimately accounts for the statistical phenomenon you detail, see

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AwfulUsername123MRA, Anti-Circumcision Warrior πŸ—‘ (shy)β€’

or the push to attain better gender balance in STEM fields

What? If you take into consideration policies that privilege women to get them into STEM, how does that at all help the case for saying women are discriminated against in jobs? Or are you saying it strikes against it?

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PigeonsArePopularNasty Little Pool Pisser πŸ’¦πŸ˜¦ β€’

Hombre, do you know what "pink collar jobs" term refers to or no?

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AwfulUsername123MRA, Anti-Circumcision Warrior πŸ—‘ (shy)β€’

I do. Now please answer my question.

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PigeonsArePopularNasty Little Pool Pisser πŸ’¦πŸ˜¦ β€’

I find your question unintelligible. Both of them. "It strikes against it" Double its?

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garbage_opinionsRadlib in denial πŸ‘ΆπŸ»β€’

That's very inaccurate, predictably, http://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/jel.20160995

-29
lumberjack_jeffDemSoc and okay with being a guyβ€’

Any study which compares "men vs women full time workers" without mentioning that male full time workers work 8% more hours has an agenda and is dishonest at its core.

It may be possible that the authors placed a footnote to this effect somewhere in this 160 page paper, but it wasn't in the first 40.

Deus must be ex Machina in there somewhere. Only a supernatural force could explain the perceived omnipresence of something that is both illogical and federally illegal for 60 years.

Out of curiosity, can anyone give me an example of something that the Lily Ledbetter act did?

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LandmassWavemean bitch πŸ’¦πŸ˜¦ β€’

Not entirely dishonest - men might be receiving preference for the jobs with more hours (and presumably more responsibility) in some cases, which means you'd need a deeper dive.

The Ledbetter Act was a procedural change. The clock previously began at the same time as the pay disparity. Now it begins when she discovers the pay disparity.

Even then the disparity isn't necessarily sexism. I was in on hiring my replacement once (so I could move to another position). I don't know what she made. Could have been more because she's one if those people everyone likes as soon as they meet her. Which would have allowed her to squeeze harder in negotiations. But she was also married and had a much shorter commute so she wouldn't have needed to ask for what I was making.

I really don't care because if they didn't offer enough I would have taken a different job.

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Oncefa2OPMRA πŸ˜­β€’

The largest study to date found a ~2% job-for-job wage gap in the West, and they even speculated that additional factors would explain the rest of it.

http://info.haygroupupdate.com/rs/494-VUC-482/images/KFHG_Gender%20Pay%20Gap_Technical%20Report.pdf

The Economist. (2017). Are women paid less than men for the same work?: When all job differences are accounted for, the pay gap almost disappears. The Economist. https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2017/08/01/are-women-paid-less-than-men-for-the-same-work

An older study found a 6% wage gap, when controlling for as many factors as they could. It was not as extensive as the job-for-job study above, which has something like 30 million data points.

Perry, Mark J. (2014). 2009 DOL report found that gender wage differences are explained by individual choices of male and female workers. https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/2009-dol-report-found-that-gender-wage-differences-are-explained-by-individual-choices-of-male-and-female-workers/

CONSAD Research Corporation. (2009). An Analysis of the Reasons for the Disparity in Wages between Men and Women. https://www.shrm.org/hr-today/public-policy/hr-public-policy-issues/Documents/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf

Women still earn less at unionized jobs (that pay everyone exactly the same) because they work fewer hours, and this difference is roughly equal to the overall gender gap for non-unionized jobs

Lips, K. A. (2016). Don’t Buy into the Gender Pay Gap Myth. Forbes. https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#5b65f3322596

Phelan, J. (2018). Harvard Study: "Gender Wage Gap" Explained Entirely by Work Choices of Men and Women. FOUNDATION for ECONOMIC EDUCATION. https://fee.org/articles/harvard-study-gender-pay-gap-explained-entirely-by-work-choices-of-men-and-women//amp

Bolotnyy, V., & Emanuel, N. (2018). Why Do Women Earn Less Than Men? Evidence from Bus and Train Operators. Working paper. https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/bolotnyy/files/be_gendergap.pdf

Female uber drivers (who are paid the same as men by a gender neutral algorithm) earn less than men because they work fewer hours and take fewer risks

http://archive.is/9OtEa

Female workers are about 8% less productive than male workers

Motherhood and the Gender Productivity Gap" Y. Gallen, Becker Friedman Institute for Research in Economics Working Paper No. 2018-41, (2018).

They take more sick time, but not to care for others

"Gender, occupational gender segregation and sickness absence:Longitudinal evidence". A.M. Melsom, A. Mastekaasa, Acta Sociologica, v61 227-245, (2018).

They are more likely to only work part time, and less likely to work at all

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/12/opinion/12sibert.html

Lesbian women earn more money specifically because they anticipate that they can't marry or date a man to spend his money instead

Drydakis, N. (2019). Sexual orientation and labor market outcomes. IZA World of Labor 2019: 111 doi: 10.15185/izawol.111.v2. https://wol.iza.org/articles/sexual-orientation-and-labor-market-outcomes/long

Fearn, Hannah. (2014). "Lesbians earn more than straight women - but gay men are penalised". The Independent. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/lesbians-earn-more-than-straight-women--but-gay-men-are-penalised-9934289.html

Younger millennial women (who largely haven’t married or had kids yet), and older, never married childless women, earn more than men (again, because they have decided to earn their own money instead of using a man as a source of income)

Luscombe, Belinda. (2010, September 1). Workplace Salaries: At Last, Women on Top. Time. http://content.time.com/time/business/article/0,8599,2015274,00.html

Farrell, Warren. (2016). Are Women Earning More Than Men?. Forbes. https://www.forbes.com/2006/05/12/women-wage-gap-cx_wf_0512earningmore.html

Jobs dominated by women pay less because women care about benefits and work life balance more than they do money (possibly because they choose to subsidize their income through men). This is a correlation, not causation; there is no active conspiracy to pay female dominated jobs less.

Ochsenfeld, F. (2014). Why do women’s fields of study pay less? A test of devaluation, human capital, and gender role theory. European Sociological Review, 30(4), 536-548. https://osf.io/5u2nn/download

"Gender, occupational gender segregation and sickness absence:Longitudinal evidence" A.M. Melsom, A. Mastekaasa, Acta Sociologica, v61 227-245, (2018).

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garbage_opinionsRadlib in denial πŸ‘ΆπŸ»β€’

MRA lol

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[deleted]β€’

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