DCS: F-16C and F/A-18C Velocity Radar Modes Update (COMING SOON)
Posted Jun 5, 2023, 10:11 PM UTC
11465
What would be a good use of these modes? Especially for the Hornet, since it doesn't give range information.
12
I had the idea that modes like this are useful for detecting small targets like cruise missiles, and for getting early, long-range detection of incoming enemies. You don't get a range, but you see that something is out there, and a bearing, which lets you cue your radar to the right direction using regular modes until you can pick them up.
34
VS mode exists for qued search.
Real radars have a probability of detection per scan. A very small distant target may only have a 20% Pd per scan at a long range.
VS has a long detection range, but provides no ranging information.
Using VS, you can confirm that 1) a target exists. 2) The targets bearing.
With this information, you can switch to RWS/TWS with a narrow scan. While RWS will only have a 20% Pd per scan, the high scan rate means you will still get to see the target often enough. (think spotlight mode, where you could get ~60 scans a minute on the distant target)
Normal revisit time is ~13 seconds in RWS 6 bar 120 degrees. That means 4.6 scans per minute. With a 20% Pd, you'd only see this hypothetical target once per minute in normal RWS.
With spotlight you get ~12 detections per minute in this same scenario. That's an average detection interval of 5 seconds, which is enough to build a LTWS trackfile.
Logical process:
- Use VS
- Cursor over VS target bearing
- Switch to RWS
- Enter Spotlight mode
- The high revisit rate ensures that even a low Pd (say 20% for this long range target) gets displayed often enough
- LTWS trackfile gets built with target vector and IFF response
- If threat, lock. If not, drop spotlight and return to VS
VS pretty much became useless with the data sharing capabilities of link-16. Why use VS when the SPY-1 on the DDG already has a trackfile for you.
27
if you out there with no DDG or CG or an or Awacs and you gotta hunt Bruh!
11
If only DCS worked this way.
4
I’ve found the comparable mode in the F-14 to be useful. When you don’t have AWACS up, getting some long range detection can be nice. It’s especially useful when you have another aircraft using RWS to search for beaming aircraft.
13
Let’s say you’ve got several bombers launching missiles. How can you tell which targets are the bombers vs the missiles if they’re all about the same range?
5
missiles likely closing much faster than the bombers?
16
Bingo!
6
Unless they all fly at the same speed
1
Of course this is less useful if you can have an AWACS and can get their speeds of the SA page but still very nice to have
1
I guess really long-range detection, for when you know something is there but are unsure of the azimuth, gives you an idea of where to look before you switch back to RWS or get a STT maybe
5
For detecting things beyond the maximum range of RWS and TWS, and lofting an AMRAAM as far as you possibly can. The VS mode in the Hornet is basically PD Search in the Tomcat.
4
EDIT: made sketch. https://karonshome.files.wordpress.com/2023/06/f-a-18-c-hornet-velocity-radar-mode-mdf-2.jpeg
EDIT2: pasted in an article. https://flyandwire.com/2023/06/06/f-a-18-radar-velocity-mode-observations/
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Lots of good comments already, but I'd like to give you 2c from a player who uses a similar mode all the time. Not considering probability of detection, RCS and many other aspects not implemented yet, this mode's primary effect is increasing the detection range. Not only that, it also gives you closure rate (Vc) and relative bearing (ATA - Antenna Train Angle), on top of the drift, which gives you an indication, along Vc, of changes in terms of Target Aspect.
However, you can have a general idea of the range and the altitude as well. Range is easy: if it's shown in VS but not in RWS, then the target is in that particular range. With a bit of experience, you'll learn the distance it represents. For example, in the Tomcat, we can start by seeing a faint AGC trace at ~130+ nm, then the target appears on the DDD with no ranging information at ~110+ nm. Then, at 90nm, we have ranging information. This, plus mission / briefing info or RWR returns, allow the RIO to assess, more or less, who and where the target is, or at least the type of target and its approximative location.
The altitude is a bit trickier: with no range, trigonometry does not work right away (I have charts for this stuff, btw). However, by checking with radar bar is used to display or refresh the return, we can tell if the target is co-altitude, lower or higher than our aircraft. In the Tomcat, with 8 bars, we can be a bit more refined because the Elevation Indicator displays the degrees of the bar itself (perhaps the Hornet does that as well, I'm not too familiar with it). Plus, there are 8 bars.
With all mentioned above, we can also approximate the target's speed. A non-drifting target on the b-scope, for example, has probably low TA (although drift may be hard to assess in PD at those ranges). If both aircraft are hot on each other, then Vc is, more or less, the sum of the Velocities.
So, to recap, with this new radar mode, the Hornet pilot can tell:
- Vc;
- ATA;
- drift;
- approximated range;
- approximated speed;
- approximated altitude;
- assess variation in TA (using drift and Vc).
Not too bad, isn't it? :)
The only issue is that all this is a bit labour-intensive. In the Tomcat, this is RIO 101, I suppose most RIOs use this all the time when building SA. However, in a single-seater aircraft, perhaps whilst maintaining formation in adverse weather or night, it can be a lot. Nevertheless, it is a great mode to start building SA early, perhaps pre-setting your radar to focus on a certain area, and so on. Then, as the range decreases, you get more info using RWS/TWS.
I hope this helps!
9
So the Hornet new DDI PB5 order seems to be RWS>VS>(I assume) TWS.
That's gonna be rough learning that new muscle memory, I see myself making a lot of mistakes there
7
That's not modelled correctly, the pushbutton should only toggle between RWS and TWS, VS should only be accessible by using the TDC hover menu on that pusbbutton.
The reason the pushbutton skips VS is that VS does not generate track files (It only shows hit bricks) so if you had an L&S designated in RWS and swapped to VS you'd lose your L&S and all other track data, then you'd swap to TWS and it would need to build them all again.
24
I think ED have it right here, see 742-100 011 02 Item 21.
On the topic though, "standard" practice as far as I'm aware IRL is to FACQ/AACQ into STT and then press PB10 to enter TWS AUTO rather than using PB5.
8
If that's the document I'm thinking of there it describes two versions of the radar format and Pushbutton/HOTAS logic, one for an older OFP (That rotates through VS) and one that matches the Hornet we currently have in-game (Rotation skips VS).
11
I probably missed it then, I only briefly looked. I'll check again later, thanks.
Edit: Did look, you're right.
6
The DCS F-18 is BuNo 165407, and if I'm reading that document correctly, it doesn't apply at all to the DCS Hornet, as that BuNo is outside the range given on the title page. Every reference in that document is to the APG-65, there is no mention of the APG-73.
4
Place your bets now on whether this update will fix the Hornet's radar dropping locks or break it even further.
7
The look down penalty is in phase 2 so it we'll see.
6
From my experience most broken locks are the shitty notching behavior and lookdown penalty working together
3
So y’all all the sudden gonna b running with no awacs support? Lol. A joke, but more realistic radar is always a good thing. Will be cool to see if any of the look down penalties will change as well.
2†
Lots of servers dont have an awacs up. Dont be scared.
6
If i had a dime for every time my AWACS went poof while my mate and i were off dropping bombs in a foothold campaign...
5
I’ve been waiting forever for VS!!
(But I watched it anyway- I wanted to hear The Voice)
2
I’m curious how this 40-50 NM VSR->STT relates to how we aren’t allowed to STT targets at max RWS detection range because of reasons according to ED. We have to wait until 80% of detection range in RWS, but in VSR we can now magically STT at long range?
2
Seems like that might be fixed with the bigger radar refactoring here.
1
Oh good, a basic radar mode used by militaries all over the world is going to be added to two modules that have been out for years. Thanks DCS. (Side note: after ED went almost totally dark over the past 3-4 months without updating anything in a meaningful way [AH-64, I'm looking at you], after almost a decade of being a diehard DCS person, I finally uninstalled it from my computer).
-45
I mean I will reply but at the comment being -29 when I replied not many will see it. All teams were hands-on and still are for Multithreading. Why? Because it was a major to all things DCS, It was a very big change to the entire sim and cause many disruptions that many different teams had to help out on and fix as they went. Most of these were fixed before MT released but there are still issues peeking out.
The fact that our guys are still pumping out updates and fixes beyond that is impressive to me at least.
Anyways... Early Access is Early Access, it's about being in on the development of a module early. This is pretty common knowledge now, and I think you know that from your other replies. We are working our butts off to get new and exciting things into DCS and these modules even if it doesn't always seem like it.
33
Don't worry, we see and appreciate it.
19
Touch grass.
22
lol
3
after ED went almost totally dark over the past 3-4 months without updating anything in a meaningful way [AH-64, I'm looking at you]
Didn’t they just majorly update the Apache flight model? And release the radar hellfire? And LST? Seriously wtf
21
Flight Model - Why release the module when you know the flight model sucks, which I agree it did and was slightly adjusted after several months.
LST - Kinda a basic targeting tool of this platform, but hey, if it takes 9 months to get it included, WTF, it's DCS and people keep buying their EA shit, so why not charge $80 for an unfinished product since people are stupid.
Radar Hellfire - Last time I checked, it's kinda hard to replicate/simulate a radar missile . . . wait for it . . . without a fucking FCR on the platform. But, let's just pretend. Until then, we can just keep designating the target using the TADS and pretend the missile is using the radar, which is basically the same processes as firing a laser Hellfire. If anyone is keeping score, I could fire a radar Hellfire from an Apache with a fully working FCR in 1997 when Longbow came out by Jane's, but not in 2022 when the DCS module came out and, again, not in 2023, months after the EA version was released. Wonder when we are going to be able to designate 16 targets using the Longbow FCR, hand those off those targets to other Apaches, assigned sectors of fire, dip below a ridgeline and ripple a series of missiles, which is what the L version of the Hellfire was designed to do. Probably sometime around 2030 at this rate.
-22
Just as an FYI, the radar hellfires as they are currently implemented are how they function in reality without the FCR or Datalink tracks. The missiles don't have a way to receive midcourse guidance from the FCR and operate in the same way they do when firing off of a programmed coordinate using the TADS or other sight source.
Like 9L said, EA is EA and DCS literally could not survive financially without it. You get an early build of the module, and ED and co. get to pay their bills at the end of the month. If you don't want to deal with the state of the module in EA don't purchase it in the first place, and read the details on EA next time.
2
Ok cool
14
Can I have your stuff?
8
So, why is he being downvoted? What did he write that is not correct?
Just curious, but I figure its Hoggit being Hoggit.
-20
I downvoted because sarcastic bitching about new features being added to the game is dumb.
22
Spending money on an EA, errrrr, unfinished product that may or may not ever be finished to completion is dumb. Here's an idea. Finish a module, completely, before announcing the next 3 or 4 EA products that are going to be released.
If you haven't been keeping score, you are keeping this company financially afloat by spending money on unfinished products (with a promise of someday getting them done) and paying what you would expect for a fully finished product.
-20
This might be a compelling argument if there was another modern flight sim company out there that released only "finished" products. But there isn't, never has been, and probably never will be. And I have gotten a hell of a lot of enjoyment out of the "unfinished" modules I've bought. I'm glad ED has been kept financially afloat so they can stay in business and continue to produce new modules as well as improve their existing ones.
11
M-Frs gotta eat doe
9
The alternative would be no company and no product. Literally.
6
Sounds like you are thinking by not paying for early access, ED will somehow able to work at a faster rate and bugs free. I think that’s not a correct assumption at all.
You can always play the finished modules like the Mirage 2000C or the Harrier, Black Shark, Warthog, you can even go back and play Jane’s Apache 2. Not sure what’s the big deal here.
You can also check out Falcon BMS, and have a taste of how long 2 weeks is.
4
I think his comment was more in line with the feature release time table that, to him, is taking too long?
Whatever, I'm starting to get downvoted for asking a question. Peculiar.
-21
Supporting a dumb thing is also dumb.
14
What did he write that is not correct?
The part about them not updating the Apache recently is pretty fucking far from correct
15
I believe his intent was to point out that it went 3-4 months without update until this current one, but given the content of what was just added I think this is a reasonable timeframe.
For the FM update in particular, helicopter dynamics is.....interesting. I think ED are doing it as well as anyone else at the moment and they're still improving.
2
In this video, we’ll cover two new velocity-based radar modes coming to the Viper and F/A-18C. For the Viper, we have added Velocity Search with Ranging, or VSR mode, and the F/A-18C, Velocity Search, or VS mode has been added. Let’s talk about both.
VSR mode is a new Combined Radar Mode, or CRM, or the Viper radar that can provide additional detection range of nose-on aspect targets. VSR interleaves High Pulse Repetition Frequency, or HPRF, with Medium Pulse Repetition Frequency, or MPRF, but it does not support Situation Awareness Mode, or SAM. The HPRF acts as an alert scan in which the target is detected along with its angle and velocity. The following MPRF scan determines range information. Note that this will only be effective when the nose of the target is in high aspect to you. Once a target is detected in VSR, it can be designated and tracked as a Single Target Track, or STT.
This can be a useful mode to detect and lock onto high aspect targets at greater ranges than possible in Range While Search and Track While Scan CRM modes.
VS mode in the F/A-18C works quite a bit differently. When selected from the radar format page, VS mode provides the most powerful radar mode, capable of detecting targets at the greatest range. However, whereas VS mode will provide target azimuth and closing velocity, no range information is provided. VS transmits only in HPRF with a high average power out setting.
Note that the higher the closing velocity, the higher to the top of the display will the target brick be. Maximum closure speed is 2,400 knots at the top of the display.
Target returns are presented on the b-scope as velocity versus azimuth. Again, it does not indicate range. If there is insufficient target closure, it will not be detected and displayed. As such, VS will only detect targets that are nose-on aspect. If the target is in high aspect, VS is only marginally affected by look down.
Sorry for a potentially dumb question, but can the Hornet's VS mode STT targets?
I was going to say “no how would that work”, but when you look at https://youtu.be/FfwUeTcDvKs?t=112 you can see s track mode entered from VS mode called RTS.
Is that enough to allow weapons employment? I don’t know. Still might allow getting nose hot to get close enough for weapons employment to happen.
That's interesting, I hope I will be able to lob AIM-120s to targets using VS.
Also RTS is not a search mode, it just means "Return To Scan" which if I remember correctly drops the lock and continues normal (VS in this case) scanning.
Would the excessive look down/up penalties be addressed at the same time?
I know its being tuned now, I am not sure when it will hit though. Testing is still on going as well.
No, they already said that's coming in a (much?) later update. Huge bummer since that is the main problem with the radars.
Booooo….