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r/toronto•
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Petition to keep the Science Centre where it is

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Two city councillors have brought a petition to Toronto City Council imploring all of council to support keeping the Science Centre where it is. Meaning they will do what they can to stop the harebrained “ Provincial “idea” to shrink and ultimately destroy the Science Centre in favour of selling off the land to developers and destroying an architecturally significant building.

r/Toronto - sign to show your support for this motion.

https://to-res.org/letter_city_council

Posted Jul 18, 2023, 4:40 AM UTC

1108
twicescorned21•

Hey I'm all for the fight but this is dofo. Unless he's being blackmailed, and I mean Epstein proportions, or God intervenes, no way the science center isn't moving.

He doesn't care about petitions

He doesn't care about people

He only cares about lining his own pocket and his cronies.

1
Doom_saunterer•

You are not wrong. We still gotta fight him with everything we've got though and not let up. If for no other reason than to not let apathy take over. I fucking hate that ass hat so much. He's a fucking cancer. Also I would really like to see those mandate letters He's fighting to hide. I'm shocked they haven't been leaked by now. Where's anonymous when you need them?

1
outdoorlaura•

Agree with you that Doug is a souless thug motivated only by money. And at the same time, imo it's still important to fight against him instead of letting him and his buddies bulldoze right over us.

Least we can do is have our objections documented and maybe force him to take accountability for some of the shit he's trying to pull. The more we can get these objections spoken about in the media, the more people might get a clue about how corrupt he is.

Example: my (very conservative) Dad finally questioned the Greenbelt situation after reading about Doug et al's avoidance of the AG. Up until now, my he was convinved it was a NIMBY situation.

1
gentlegreengiant•

Lucky you. My family still thinks hes going to help the housing crisis with more developments...

1
Short_Schedule5568•

Ask bill nye the science guy what he would do with it , isn’t he Canadian or something

1
Doom_saunterer•

He's American. David Suzuki is Canadian.

1
lockdownsurvivor•

Very Canadian, I'm proud of his work.

1
Desperate_Outside169•

The more Torontonians fight Dofo, the more he laughs, because his whole campaign is showing his supporters, "see how I'm sticking it to Toronto?"

1
Marmar79•

So lie down?

1
UofTSauga•

"Dougie here ya, Dougie don't care"

1
dark_forest1Moss Park•

Yeah - except for those of us who are happy with what he’s done for our city. New subway, cutting our comically large NIMBY council, special mayoral powers and, yes, developing Ontario Place? These are all green check marks for me and a huge amount of voters.

1
may_be_indecisive•

Considering your "Moss Park" tag, I'm assuming you don't live in walking distance to Ontario Place like I do, where it used to be a public park that I could enjoy for free and walk my dog through. Now they are building a $20 mil parking garage with my tax dollars to fund a private spa that will only add to congestion on Lakeshore and the rest of my neighbourhood that I walk by every day.

And instead of the event space that I've been attending every year for beer fests there will be an expensive mega spa that I will never use, displacing 100 species of wildlife that currently live there.

1
dark_forest1Moss Park•

So your stance is that we should leave an abandoned theme park built on a pile of artificial waterfront owned by the people of Ontario for you to walk your dog through? Just checking.

1
dark_forest1Moss Park•

Ontario Place is for the people of Ontario. There’s a dog park at Coronation Park and a variety of other city-owned parks designed for use of Torontonians. Many people are surprised to learn that Ontario Place isn’t a municipal park.

Edit: Subway is going straight through my neighbourhood to Ontario Place - it’s gonna be great! Can’t wait.

1
may_be_indecisive•

“Ontario Place is for the people of Ontario.”

Then why should I have to pay to use the facilities on it? That’s what taxes are for. Either the spa is public and free or it goes.

You seriously don’t see a problem with using $20 mil of tax money to build a parking garage for a private business on public land?

That’s called misappropriation of public funds. Which is basically DoFo’s MO.

1
BlackDynamiteFromDa6South Parkdale•

Ontario Place is for the people of Ontario.

Ontario Place isn't for the people of Ontario just cause the land is mostly owned by the provincial government or because it is named Ontario Place. It was originally built to act like an expo grounds of sorts with exhibits that promote Ontario, but then it was changed to a theme park, and then became a public park. It was and is primarily used by Toronto and its immediate suburbs residents. Parts of Wards Island are provincially owned land, is that also for the people of Ontario as well? Same with parts of the West Don Lands, is the Corktown Commons now for the people of Ontario?

There’s a dog park at Coronation Park and a variety of other city-owned parks designed for use of Torontonians

And? So what? Is your argument that Ontario Place shouldn't be a public park as it has existed for years now because there are other parks nearby and thus is redundant? What is your line for how far parks should be from each other?

Many people are surprised to learn that Ontario Place isn’t a municipal park.

Corktown Commons was partially built on provincially owned land. Most, if not all, would be surprised by that. Does that suddenly mean that Corktown Common should have something like a spa put onto it so it can be "for the people of Ontario" rather than existing as a public park for all? There are other parks near it such as Cherry Beach, Tommy Thompson, The Don Ravine, Jimmie Simpson and Riverdale so why not?

Subway is going straight through my neighbourhood to Ontario Place - it’s gonna be great! Can’t wait.

A light metro based on the existing plans and routing for Downtown Relief Line Phase 1 (Pape to Osgoode), Phase 2 (Pape to Don Mills) and Phase 3 (Osgoode to Dundas West). Acting as if Dougie blessed you a new subway when it's just a rejigging of the existing DRL plans from Metrolinx's The Big Move is a wee bit dishonest.

1
EquivalentCrazy4283•

I looked at the plans. You can still walk through the park. What am I missing?

And the congestion on lakeshore is never going away anyways. The subway can only help. But the congestion is the 905 crowd. Just like every bud stage concert.

1
mkbt•

The province is running ads for Ontario Place that make it sound like it has already moved.

"Spark your creativity at the all new Ontario Science Centre. Make a splash at new beaches and trails along the waterfront. To learn more visit Ontario.ca/OntarioPlace"

The URL is for the redevelopment but the ad is like the redevelopment has already happened. People were complaining about the province's Electric ads. This is pure DoFoPro -- conservative propaganda.

1
caelestisangel•

Well the plans for everything are pretty much complete, revamps and minor changes are being done now so it's not going to be long.

1
dark_forest1Moss Park•

It’s a done deal lol people here don’t seem to understand that. Province can and will expropriate land to make it happen if there’s static.

They PROBABLY have a better chance delaying (not canceling) the Therme project.

1
caelestisangel•

My spouse 's company has been working on this for a very long time. Even if they don't expropriate the land, they have a workaround already set up.

1
Swoshu•

they're being paid out for asian developers aren't they?

1
stoneape314Dorset Park•

*Austrian spa

(Also, most of the large developers in Ontario aren't Asian)

1
Swoshu•

close enough

1
stoneape314Dorset Park•

If you'd said Australian...

1
sarah_ivy•

Why can we have a new "science center" and keep the current one? We are a huge, growing city. The current science center is always busy - there's high demand. Let's have more nice things!

1
theDIRECTionlessWAY•

With what money? People are homeless, hungry, and we need housing.

Moving the science center, or building another one, is a complete waste of money. I don’t care which level of government is footing the bill.

1
ciprian1564•

the profits the science center garners go to the province. it's called an investment

1
theDIRECTionlessWAY•

People are homeless now. That should be a governments priority.
We don’t have time for a move/second build to pay off after a decade or however long it takes.

1
ciprian1564•

there can be multiple priorities and multiple different teams. this isn't zero sum friend. moreover having another science center could increase revenue into the city and the province which could in turn further fund the homeless issue.

1
Ca1v1n_Canada•

Imagine thinking that funding science programs for children doesn’t have significant benefits to our economy.

1
theDIRECTionlessWAY•

Imagine imagining that’s what I’m imagining.

I don’t think this is something that can wait [for a new science center to pay itself off, then for the profits that follow to maybe go towards helping the homeless, the affordability issues, etc.]

There is more than enough money. These things just have to be prioritized. Not put off… again… and again.

1
arjrah94•

Not everything needs to be compared to homelessness and hunger. If that were the case every single aspect of life should be stopped until homelessness is solved.

1
sarah_ivy•

I totally agree with this. We need to solve homelessness and housing prices and continue to improve other aspects of the quality of the city.

1
caelestisangel•

When's the last time you were at the science center? I was there last week and it's not busy, and it's falling apart. And most of the parking lot has three feet weeds growing in it.

1
shinn43•

IIRC moving science Center apart from building up waterfront theme park (bs btw as we already have too much traffic in DT) was to convert the lot to housing.

1
Shredswithwheat•

Mostly this, yes.

I live in the area though. In the last 6 months I've seen signs for proposals for 5 new condo builds, including one on the Flemingdon Golf Course, and one that would require ripping down the townhouses in my little section to build a new building, on land that already has 3 270+ unit buildings on it within throwing distance.

Not to mention buildings already erected on and across from the "Science Center" crosstown stop (what are you going to rename the stop if you move it?).

They do not need that land for development.

5
shinn43•

Seems like provincial plans are to tear down cultural landmarks, green spaces, and smaller units (semi detached houses, townhouses and etc) to alleviate housing crisis. I’m all up for more development but the persisting issue of a “core” city and lack of public transportation should be prioritized.

toronto should explore expanding outwards and introducing attractions outside the “core” with reliable and safer public transit.

1
IycheeFully Vaccinated!•

if you go on the weekend (especially when the weather isn't very nice) it's insanely packed with families. I waited 20 mins just to turn into the parking lot because of the line of cars going in. Other than the bridge issue, the centre itself could use some cosmetic updates, sure, but the exhibits are solid and the kids area is a family favourite for many.

1
drumbopiper•

This. It's not a desolate 3rd world falling apart building, it's maybe patina-ed around the edges a bit.

1
caelestisangel•

You're wrong, and unless you're employed in the field, you should keep your inexperienced, uneducated comments to yourself. You have no idea what you're talking about.

1
lockdownsurvivor•

There's a high demand for housing, too. It might even be cheaper to turn it into a huge homeless shelter rather than spend the money on repairs. What I do not want is for the land to be used for Ford's purposes.

1
Outrageous-Estimate9•

Bingo. I dont see why they cant simply build a 2nd one downtown.

1
sarah_ivy•

Exactly, they are redeveloping the lands anyways!

1
ElDougler•

Conservatives want you to have less nice things and more empty condos and redundant highways

1
Downtown-Assistant1•

I found it weird how moving the science centre seemingly came out of nowhere.

One of the candidates for mayor (I don’t remember which one) says “We should move the science centre”

Doug Ford “Done”

1
MeiliCanada82St. James Town•

Ana Bailio. John Tory in female form

1
Techchick_Somewhere•

And backed by Ford.

1
golfman11•

Except he endorsed Saunders

1
pinkyjinks•

They’ve been talking about moving it for years. I worked there about five years ago and it was a discussion point even back then.

1
Downtown-Assistant1•

Ok, I stand corrected. I just couldn’t recall hearing about it before.

1
pinkyjinks•

Yeah I definitely had an inside track working there. The building itself is in total disrepair from being neglected and underfunded (structure and programs) for decades. I can’t remember the exact number but a few studies have been done to determine how much it would cost to renovate it and the number is astronomical.

1
caelestisangel•

They've been working on it for a couple of years, in fact, most of the plans are done, they're simply doing revamps, putting services and final places etc

1
kokolikee•

There were murmurs about it for years under the Liberals. The talk was that the old building was in such bad shape, it would be near impossible to renovate.

1
JoeyJoeJoeJuniorShab•

moving the science centre seemingly came out of nowhere.

It was kinda announced in 2018 as part of an Omnibus Bill (Bill 57), Restoring Trust, Transparency and Accountability Act, 2018. Schedule 31 included, Ontario Place Corporation Repeal Act, 2018.

1
Mister_E_Mahn•

I’ve never really liked that science centre. Great big ugly building that (at least as of today) you basically have to drive to. That whole part of town is just ugly plazas and even though there is green space around it it’s always felt like I’m in a concrete dystopia. Just not a very pleasant place.

1
OverCameraOP•

It provides a lot of work for people who live in Flemingdon Park area, has partnerships with schools in the area and even if you don’t like the architecture per se, check it out in the HBO show Station Eleven. Was completely shot in the Science Centre. Does not deserve to be torn down.

1
AwesomeMan116_A•

Line 5 and Line 3 will eventually be at Science Centre, so in the near future you will have a lot more options to travel to there! :)

1
Mister_E_Mahn•

Yeah that’ll improve it. When I’m taking the kids out on the weekend I’m generally not saying “hop in the car”.. not sure my kids will still be kids once those lines are done though.

1
nipplesaurus•

Doug would be very upset if he could read it

1
maxpown3r•

Ya, why the heck do I want a science Center next to my Costco and the most “blah” region possible?

Next to the water would make it so much more accessible and save the planet but stopping the need to drive there. /s

1
IDhl89•

Ok nobody get mad, I’m not complaining, I just want an explanation

Why is the building itself significant? It’s an older style that’s tucked away from the street. It’s also been renovated a lot and covered mostly in glass. What am I missing? Famous architect or something?

1
OverCameraOP•

Yes

1
HouseCravenRaw•

Famous architecture, it is out of the core and the proposed move would make it smaller.

For a butt tonne of money. Keeping it where it is costs only maintenance. Moving it is expensive AF.

So the question is, do you want to pay a ridiculous amount of taxpayer money to build a new, smaller, downtown Science Centre, or continue to pay the smaller amount of taxpayer upkeep money to maintain the larger Science Centre that doesn't currently have any problems?

This is just another cash-grab for Ford.

1
caelestisangel•

That's not true, it needs some significant renovation, at a really significant cost. It's not simply about maintenance, we're not talking about some paint and mowing the lawn here

1
HouseCravenRaw•

I'd be curious to see the math there. Cost of renos to an existing building, vs building a brand new one downtown.

Until I see numbers to the contrary, I'm on the side of "renos are cheaper than rebuilding".

1
caelestisangel•

They're not using a new building downtown. The Science Center is going into existing infrastructure.

1
Shredswithwheat•

It's also going to just become increasingly more accessible once the crosstown is opened up.

They literally named the stop "Science Center" and it's a 30 second walk to it. Would be neat if they could connect it underground.

1
Shail666•

Signed! I have so many memories at the science center...

1
_Greyworm•

Me too! I went to a rave there once, the glow tunnel was rad. I've enjoyed going there every time, though

3
Space--Queen•

Signed! Thank you for bringing this to our attention!!

1
Jamarac•

I understand that it has historical significance but am I the only one that thinks having the science center in the waterfront at least has the possibility of being cool for the children? It would be a great field trip where you'd got not only the experience of the science center but the water front piers and parks. It would also add a little more vibrancy to the water front in that area similar to how the science center in MTL is in their waterfront.

I am not strongly one way or another I just can't be the only one thinking this? Genuine question here.

1
OverCameraOP•

Yeah you’re the only one. Would suck so hard at the waterfront for many reasons. Huge increase in car traffic for example. Pods in terrible shape for the science centre collection and displays.

1
livid69•

No you’re not the only one, having it completely uptown makes no sense to me. Everyone’s so sentimental on a building, just move it and be done with it

1
TorontoDavidThe Danforth•

Nah. We should preserve the building, and reinvest into it.

Our history matters.

1
HouseCravenRaw•

Smaller, downtown, and wickedly expensive to build vs the larger, perfectly fine version that already exists.

Again, wickedly expensive. It is not cheap to build a new science centre. It is a lot cheaper just to pay the upkeep on the existing building.

1
BustyMicologist•

The main issue is that the new facility proposed would be about half the size of the old one. Also fwiw the Montreal science centre is really small and kinda boring compared to the Ontario Science Centre.

1
barthrh•

The current location is terrible for tourism. Very inaccessible today, not worth the trip for most. One the subway is built it’ll be better, but still isolated from the core. That said, Vancouver’s is a bit out there and I made the trip.

My kids went to the science center all the time. It’s a great spot for families and young children when out of school. I think the quality is a bit “meh” vs others.

Perhaps the OP version is an annex, hosts the premium temporary exhibits and things that we’d like to highlight (e.g. Canadian innovation but always kept current). Keep the Don Mills one for community and families, perhaps integrate programs with the education curriculum.

As for footprint, between the IMAX, giant cafeteria, generous lobby and funny areas for escalators, the floor space at the OSC isn’t very well used. You could probably deliver the same or better in a much smaller footprint.

1
rosanna_rosannadannaEast York•

Scrap the spa, build a bigger, better, science centre in that space, not in the crappy left-over Ontario Place pods that are 1/3 the floor area of the existing science centre.

1
lockdownsurvivor•

Done - via second link provided.

1
milolai•

Can someone link a petition to have that pos moved?

It is old and falling apart and should be closer to the core where people can access it easier.

1
i_donnoFashion District•

Its so nuts that they are building the "Ontario" line from Ontario Place to Ontario Science Centre but then ooops no more Science Centre out there... lets put it in the other "Ontario" thing.

1
dbsblock•

They’ve already gotten construction companies prepped to start. Your petition won’t do shit unfortunately

1
toronto34Pape Village•

We gotta fucking fight. This and the SPA are the two dumbest fucking things and we can stop him.

1
rawrkristy•

didn’t they just build the “science centre” lrt station? 🙄

1
Less_Poet_5763Henry Farm•

Last I'd been there (admittedly a while ago) it was still being built... Seems really silly to have spent all that time and money building a station right across from the science center and then immediately deciding to move the science center somewhere else!!

1