Source
r/magicTCG•
Crystallish

What in the world is with Sellers selling at a loss? (commander Masters)

General Discussion

So I pre-ordered enduring enchantments and Planeswalker Party for 118 combined with shipping and taxes included.

However the price crashed AGAIN, and I was asking for a refund to order for like, around 5 bucks less.

What started as a heated discussion in how my cancelation wouldn't be accepted just to re-order at a lower price (Cardmarket, professional seller) turned into a rather interesting and emotional conversation really fast.

Fact of the matter is that 2 of the decks are sold at a loss, and two above 'msrp or whatnot', to break even or maybe make a slight profit.

I simply cannot wrap my head around the this mess of a pre-sale. I mean, dozens of people feel the need to get rid of the product to minimize their financial damage, and they are, even at a loss, undercutting each other like madmen. (the decks sit at around 52 at Cardmarket, which is a very decent price for what's on offer)

While Resellers might be at Fault for going even lower on prices as they already are, Wizards must have known how this turns out, no? I mean, in a perfect world, they would lower prices retroactively to support their sellers, while still making a fortune. But that's just not how this market works, no?

Dunno, I was just baffled by the fact that resellers find themselves in such stressful circumstances, and I needed to get my thoughts out.

Posted Jul 27, 2023, 10:58 AM UTC

141
ExorrtCOMPLEAT•

Stores can't order each deck individually, wizards only ships a set of four. So if there's 2 decks that everyone wants, there will be an equal amount of the other 2 and that will crash their price since demand will be much lower than supply, meanwhile they still cost the same to the stores.

1
saspook•

and if wizards lowered the price off all four, then stores would order more, dropping the price off all four and causing losses on the less desirable two decks, getting us right back to where we are

6
HmukherjCOMPLEAT•

Fact of the matter is that 2 of the decks are sold at a loss, and two above 'msrp or whatnot', to break even or maybe make a slight profit.

This isn't new to CMM though - most sets of Commander decks have one "chase" deck, so stores either have to sell others at a loss or else only sell all 4/5 as a set, otherwise there's a risk of sitting on inventory that won't move.

1
Roughor•

I can understand the sellers. Imagine it would be the other way around. You buy the one ring at €15 during pre release and they cancell your order. Then they relist it for €50. That would feel bad for sure. Now imagine many many people do this to you at the same time while you are already losing money.

People tend to forget there are 2 parties involved and only look after their own gains.

1
HmukherjCOMPLEAT•

People tend to forget there are 2 parties involved and only look after their own gains.

Seriously. Willing to bet if the situation was reversed OP would have posted here to complain about their pre-order being canceled because the price went up. Can't have it both ways.

1
CrystallishOP•

Im not complaining, I was, to the seller, at first. But I understand the situation, and I feel bad for the guy who sells product in that environment. This isn't about the few bucks I could have saved, it's about how hard it seems to read your cards right as a seller in this kind of market

1
HmukherjCOMPLEAT•

This isn't about the few bucks I could have saved

But it is, at least partially. If you're going to try to cancel pre-orders to try to save $5 (which is like 8% of distributor cost), then it's hard to believe that you actually feel bad for the sellers.

Yes, WotC is putting sellers in a tough spot due to the distribution price for these decks compared to the value of what's inside. But when customers are also aggressively shopping around for the best deals (as is their right), it puts further pressure on LGS owners/online shops. We all hear that you should expect to have to pay more to support your store - this is just another example of what it looks like.

1
CrystallishOP•

I was trying to say that this is not meant as a complaint by me for not being able to min-max, but I definetly admit to being part of the problem that I came to realize exists. The thing is I had to realize is this isn't Amazon, but some way, way smaller store owner who doesn't offer those luxurious services we've come to get used to over the past years

1
breathingweapon•

People tend to forget there are 2 parties involved and only look after their own gains.

This quote from Civ6 always stuck with me: "There are very honest people who do not believe they've gotten a deal unless they have cheated a merchant."

1
Poppyspy•

2023 has an extreme product release schedule. They barely give mass consumers enough time to get a paycheck before the next product. Also that the old products largely sell based on release day hype and diminish greatly by the time the next product is being spoiled 4 weeks later. The other issues with the precons is that they have guaranteed cards in them. They have decent value on day 1, but after people get bored of them and once the additional collectors box card singles hit the market, it becomes harder to sell a precon to people who would buy it to get the new cards.

So basically, if stores naively over purchased these decks for their typical output, they have to know they'll sell most of them by September. Otherwise they'll rot forever.

So my only guess is that this specific seller doesn't think they can sell the quantity they have ordered in the time frame before Eldraine is the focal point of WotC marketing and customers shift their funds over to that.

1
KyleometersEater of Delicious Cards•

In addition to what everyone else has said about price balancing, if I’m a seller, and I buy a product for €80, but nobody wants it, do I hold onto it for 2-3 years, until I can sell it for €80, or do I sell it for €60 right now, at a loss, but right now?

Shops will sell at a loss if it recoups some money for what would otherwise be a total loss.

1
elppapleHedron•

Exactly, in a year that 20 euros in cash will pay itself off, while a box on a shelf will earn nothing.

1
CrystallishOP•

Do you think there's something in that supply chain (is that the right word? Like, from start to finish, as from production to selling to a consumer) that could better the situation for sellers? To keep the price a bit more stable, and not have you guys basically fighting for survival?

Other question: if you're willing to sell at a loss, you'd need to recuperate due to some other products that you sell for higher than usual margins, no? Is that the case? Do things even out? I mean, you can't just sell 2/3 of product at a loss and expect to be still in business by months' end, right?

1
KyleometersEater of Delicious Cards•

I’m not a retailer lol

Generally though, yes you hope your other products cover the loss. This is only something you do when you cannot sell a product at a price that earns a profit. You’ll see it a lot in a grocery store, actually. Ever checked out the clearance section? It’s all product marked down massively because they’ll lose 100% of the value when it expires.

1
nerdstuffaltacctCOMPLEAT•

As a retailer, the best thing wotc could do for this particular problem would be to enforce an msrp. Set the msrp, and have a 1 year prohibition on selling the product for any more than 20% under that msrp. If you post the product under that, then you lose WPN status and can't order future products.

As to how we survive selling this stuff at a loss, it boils down to table fees, non mtg product, and being smart about the set. I had initially ordered 12 cases of each product available for CMM for each of my stores. I submitted those orders 8 weeks ago. We have to submit early and hope that the spoilers are good. Once the slivers deck was spoiled, I canceled all but 1 case of each product per store from my distributer. I still have to pay the shipping on 12 cases, and the expected price of each product is at or under my cost, so I'm going to lose about $5,000 on cmm as of release day. That eats up my three biggest stores profit from constructed play event fees over the last month, so it's not the end of the world.

That said, I'm already only ordering the dr. Who decks for which I have pre-orders and I will not carry that product going forward. I'm highly considering the risky practice of no orders on premium products until spoilers are out. This will drastically limit my ability to stock to demand, but I'm not pleased with wotc, so I'd rather risk not having enough than having too much at this point.

1
RealityPalaceCOMPLEAT-ISH•

As a retailer, the best thing wotc could do for this particular problem would be to enforce an msrp. Set the msrp, and have a 1 year prohibition on selling the product for any more than 20% under that msrp. If you post the product under that, then you lose WPN status and can't order future products.

A price floor would not be the unambiguous win for LGSs that you're imagining.

It would benefit large retailers (who can afford to have some product sit on shelves until it accumulates enough value to sell) and Amazon vendors (who would now have an easier time competing on price).

It would hurt the retailers that are already marking stuff down to sell at a loss though, because now they're faced with the choice of either throwing stuff away or having it sit on their shelves unsold.

1
nerdstuffaltacctCOMPLEAT•

I remember the msrp days of mtg. It wasn't that. Establishing a price floor prevents online undercutting and lgs/tcgplayer disparity. It was industry standard levels of "fine" which is a massive improvement on "lose thousands of dollars on this set." Sure, Amazon would hold it, and some bigger places would have an advantage. But at least one bad set wouldn't tank them completely. Imagine getting stuck with aftermath product. Yikes. Those leaks saved me several thousand dollars.

I'm thinking about printing proxies for CMM with "fuck wotc" backs to recoup some of my loss there.

1
linkdude212•

With the way inflation has been going, selling now for 60€ is basically the same as selling in two years for that 80€. Either way it's a loss and it is better to have the cash to be able to invest it in a new thing.

1
elppapleHedron•

Cash flow is king. Stores can't afford to waste space and cash on decks sitting on shelves. Every euro they have can be put to better use on other things.

1
CrystallishOP•

Yeah it is, I came to realize that as well, which is why it doesn't bother me at all anymore that I didn't save on 'that last bit of money'.

1
dontknowifbotornotCOMPLEAT•

They don't have to accept a cancellation anyway (on cardmarket atleast), you entered a legally binding agreement to buy a product at a given price, the product being cheaper now doesn't affect that contract.

1
InZehInterfector•

Online ordering has a 14 day cancellation clause no questions asked.

https://www.evz.de/en/shopping-internet/online-shopping/right-of-withdrawal.html

1
Cool-Leg9442•

They get the decks in sets thts why during pre-order it's usually cheaper to buy the 4pack or 5pack vs getting each individually. But when they sell individually 1 or 2 of them get hyped up more for varies reasons (strategy reprints ect.) so they become more expensive and because they get the cases as the sets not individuals the other ones drop in value. Because demand is low so there trying to move them. And they don't lose money cause they make more on the 1 or 2 going high so it all balances out.

1
Kylock__•

Speaking as an LGS that has both the space and cash flow to let things sit on our shelves for a long time I really feel for stores that have to sell things at a slight profit or a loss. Wotc had to know the slivers and eldrazi decks would be way more popular (despite my belief that the enchantment deck is actually the strongest one) and still sold the other two decks with them.

This is why collector boxes also always sell for fairly close to cost, stores can’t drop $10,000 on collector boxes and wait two years for that to sell at the ‘standard’ 50% margin. They need to get that $10,000 back asap so they can place orders for Wilds of Eldraine, which is out, what, a month after CMM? I dunno how stores do it to be honest, if we couldn’t play the long game on Magic I think we’d stop carrying it.

1
poemsandrobots•

So kind of what it seems to me is that the secondary market valuation on card singles has broken MSRP pricing schemes for precon sealed products.

WotC says "This is the cost of the product to primary retailers" but everyone looks at the card list and says "Well this is the value of the product in the secondary market" before it's even released, and that value and that cost don't align.

So what's the solution here? How do all parties manage a profitable revenue stream?

1
Kylock__•

Sadly, there’s not a solution that will keep all parties happy and it’s always going to be the seller that suffers. Consumers will tend toward the cheapest price, WoTC and distribution have hard, fixed numbers for sale, so it’s the retail seller that ultimately has to eat missed sales or low margin.

There are things of course contributing to it, one in particular that bothers me is how often Magic cards are viewed as a commodity or investment, but ultimately WoTC and massive online sellers mean that it’s a race to the bottom to cover investment before the next product launch.

1
poemsandrobots•

Yeah, that's a huge problem. I've been getting back into Magic over the last couple months after not having played since ~1999/2000. It was turning into a game that the rich kids could win at because they could buy up the pricey combos and beat the hell out of those of us who could only afford a booster or two per month. That's what kind of pushed me out back then.

But even still, it was people purchasing game pieces expressly to be able to play and win the game. It wasn't the trade commodity we see now (at least it wasn't in my community). Now it's like the stock market, and so many people are buying cards for some sort of investment, like we saw with the craze over the 1/1 One Ring.

1
TestMyConvictionCOMPLEAT•

Stores need better cash flow and that starts with a healthy margin. Unfortunately the average store starts underfunded, which means the slightest hiccup causes them to panic sell. Rage towards masters sets and higher priced items is not new, everyone was mad at VIP, MH2 collectors, and 2X2 collector boxes only having 4 packs. All of these products sold well on release despite poor presales and online fomenting.

So my best advice for stores having a more profitable margin is to not follow online pricing. Price at the margin you need to be successful and build from there.

1
DarkShade666•

Man, I hope WotC will allow things to slow down a bit. I mean the LotR set is still pretty new and now CMM has been fully spoiled, but even before I could fully think about what all I might want to buy from the set to upgrade the precons and which cards from the set I want in which art style and which products to buy, the first Dr. WHO spoilers came out AND then almost immediately, the first Wilds of Eldraine spoilers came out with even more Dr. Who Spoilers. Right now I'm figuring out if I should wait till Wilds of Eldraine to buy new full art foils of 'Smothering Tithe' and 'Doubling Season' as they will be on the bonus sheets with at least two new arts, each, after both being reprinted in the still upcoming CMM. Such a breakneck speed. Almost no time to actually spend time with the actual cards of tla set and a constant feeling of fomo. But there is a limit to what can be spend on cards each month for a hobby...

1
RoterBaronHCheshire Cat, the Grinning Remnant•

Our store started to sell precons only as a complete set or if they find enough people to which buy the full set.

1
Xelmnus•

I preordered the case of them for 308 out the door. Did that work out okay?

1
egg_4•

The market is weird but would it help if wizards did MSRP for the product or would that make it worse?

1
Financial-Growth-348•

it would do literally nothing. msrp is useless. regular booster boxes were always msrp at 4 bucks a pack and no one actually paid that for them. meanwhile any high demand pre-cons would sell over for what people were willing to pay

1
Financial-Growth-348•

cancelling a preorder to save 5 bucks good lord what a shithead

1
Royal-Al•

This is the way

1
Rizla_TCG•

Lmao you asked to refund and reorder over $5.00? Yeah I'd tell you to kick rocks and enjoy your precons.

1
PEKKAmiCOMPLEAT•

It is said that the customer is always right. What is often left out is that not everyone should be accepted as a customer. OP certainly demonstrated that his money isn’t worth the trouble.

1
zaphodavaJack of Clubs•

If called to cancel a preorder over $5, I'd go ahead and cancel, and then permanently ban you from the store.

You need to value other people's time.

1
Firinael•

people are missing the entire point behind this issue:

your job, as a consumer, is to spend as little money as you can on what you want since you literally need money for everything and you work for it.

the shop's job is to push the price of products as high as they can to get as much money out of you without making you give up on a purchase, they're necessarily trying to milk you and pressure you and fuck you over.

Wizards of The Coast are the ones who priced the decks at a premium starting price and therefore fucked the store owners.

this is just capitalism, plain and simple. you are completely correct in cancelling your preorder, and the store owners should be complaining to WoTC instead of blaming the consumer.

1
Jayden966999th-gen Dimensional Robo Commander, Great Daiearth•

I mean, it's $5 difference between the current presales and the new one you were hoping for. Not really worth it IMHO. Now if it was $20 or more difference then I would definitely agree that cancelling and reordering would be worth it.

Does it really matter that you paid $5 more for two of the 4 decks? You're still coming out with a decent deal.

1