Source
r/BobsTavern•
kzero0

Hot take: oops one-tribe games requires the most skill

Discussion

Ok, before I get flamed with "no, you just suck" while that's not untrue... I haven't played much this whole year, mostly enough games (70~80) to complete the track and end around 8k with bonus MMR still on. Previous seasons when I grinded, I'm okay enough to hit 10k or top200 to get my screenshot, definitely not elite enough to stay in top 100. So I'm not a complete noob but I admit I hover to read card text/tribe on new cards and have ended up floating 2 gold, 5 cards in hand, one open spot on board more than once recently.

"what are you on?"
I'm bored at work.

"You dumb, it's pure RNG on getting the right heroes + cards"

Not completely disagreeing but are you guaranteed first place if you hit Tess? You still need to know what cards are key and what are good.

What I mean by "one-tribe games require the most 'skill'" ^^^^^and ^^^^^RNG, you need very extensive knowledge and extreme optimization down to tiny details. There are around ~100 heroes, ~200 minions (double if you count golden), 8 tribes active in game right now. From experience, I'd say to climb to 10k you only need to be good with 60% of the heroes, play around 75% decently, can actively avoid playing one tribe and be not good with about a handful of comps.

For example, all Beasts cause it's probably the worst offender and I've played it back to back games

Step 1: Get top 10 stealing/discover/manacheat hero
Step 2: GET BANANA
Step 3: ?????
Step 4: profit

Other than the top 1020ish and bottom 1020ish heroes, what about the others in between? Reno, Cat, are you playing Brukan or Enhance-o Mechano or is not worth your time?

In a nutshell, yes the basic gameplan is straightforward, get those Banana Slammas cause bananas. But getting there, not getting Slammas, and what you do after you get it is the hard part.
You don't have the best card yet what's the next best thing? Buying the new gain health beast early is kinda smart, getting Blaster on 7g is kinda clever too.
Are you griefing Tess if hit a Slamma on 7g?
Do you triple into tier 4 minion?
Do you stay on tier 4 and donkey roll, there's only a X amount of copies to go around, or do you go to 5 and try to print your own copies with Duo? Can you afford to play Drakkari?
Can you afford to drop 2 rattlers and pray it doesn't reborn each other?
Would you go for Mamas, Papas, and Octos with all those quitters in the lobby to let you level?
Do you and when do you triple your Slammas? 2 Slammas is better than 1 single golden, but if you don't golden you can't get more.
What's the best possible end board you can possibly get? More reborn Slammas better but no deathrattle and no space to spawn = weaker. Is golden Mama worth the slot?
Is it worth it to tech, like divineshieldwindfury (Sin'dorei Straight Shot) to remove reborn, Blaster+Rivendare?

I honestly don't know the "correct" answers to some of the questions above. And yet this the "easiest" tribe game because duh~ get slamma and win, no slamma you lose.

In a normal game, unless I face a mirror I would've already easily won when I hit 3 G Slammas, 1 G mama, 3 any deathrattles with some taunt. It generally doesn't matter if I picked a better deathrattle when it plops out 500/500 instead of 800/800 minions, which is why I said "play around 75% decently", some misplays here and there and sub-optimal choices are a lot more forgiving. Math, so hard.

In these games, every game is (likely) a mirror game.

I got second place instead of first not because of "omg I'm so unlucky" but because it never crossed my mind (until facing it in the rematch last round) to pick up the new [5/5 that summons from your hand] while rolling for more Slammas. Poor basic skill play, fundamental 101 - know all the cards.

Fourth place played Mama/Ghastcoilers with blasters, neato.

^(X is 11 in a normal lobby and yes I had to look it up, not sure if minions are equally x5 in single tribe lobbies.)

"It's boring."
Ah well yeah, it's subjective but I can't argue. I guess if you are high level enough, there's not much variance when you got all the answers figured out. Look at how bored one sarcastic top streamer gets when he gets to top 10 during bland metas.

"So you like it then? You can have all the stupid oops games."
No no no no thanks, because I suck haha, I thought we established that. I don't know the cards or the best comps. Still waiting for my Panda game.

Posted Aug 28, 2023, 8:25 AM UTC

113
LonzofanboyMMR: 6,000 to 8,000•

Its main problem is it's boring where there will only be one viable strategy.

1
kzero0OPMMR: < 4000•

This is mostly on the game designers with the powercreep. We don't want froggies going up to 1m stats, here have slammas instead.

Beasts way back used to have three viable comps.

1
najfu•

It's not just skill, luck also plays the most important part of this anomalies.

1
Hanz_28•

Who tf wants to read that pile of crap? No one.

1
PockyMai-san•

you just described playing the game well and then ignored why people think mirrors are more rng based. There’s no shot u think tess is not a broken hero with this anomaly

1
YuasaLee_AL•

Every game rewards this level of skill and decision making. You are simply finding that the Oops! anomaly answers the higher level questions for you (what build should i go) and therefore you're able to focus more on these questions.

If you find your opponents are also thinking about their gameplay to this extent, there might be an argument that reducing other variance allows for more focused and competitive gameplay at lower skill levels. But you've actually made a very convincing argument that Oops! lobbies are actually the lowest skill required gameplay, not the highest.

1
poofartpeeMMR: Top 200•

It removes like 90% of the games decision space. No that does not make it higher skill.

Would chess be higher skill game if every piece was a rook?

1
ProfAlstad•

I think Chess is actually a good comparison, and actually gives some credence to OPs point: Chess (which most people would say is a purely skill game) is a game with 16 different pieces, and really only 6 different ones. There are countless ways to deploy them but relatively few good openings.

So while there is an optimal build for each tribe, you need to know how to build it, you need to know how to position it, and you need to know how to modify it when your opponent has an advantage. I went for 3-4 rounds against final opponent in a Murloc lobby, and finally won when I was able to position my Bassgills a bit better than he did, and he had focused too much on stats than on venomous (i.e. his 300/300 Bream Counter dies to venomous just as easily as my 120/120).

I'd say that the RNG in the standard game is 80% getting offered the things you need in the shop, and 20% combat, at least until you have an endgame board built. The Oops lobbies tip the balance of that severely to combat RNG, so knowing how to mitigate that through positioning, taunts, shields etc. does require a lot of skill.

It would be an interesting experiment to see average positioning of high MMR (i.e. ostensibly high skill) players in Oops lobbies compared to standard games, but outside of that type of data, it can only ever be based on player perception. My perception is that I'd tend to agree with OP in most of the Oops lobbies I've seen so far. Except for Thorim in an Undead lobby. If you don't somehow manage to take him out by turn 8, then feel free to just quit.

1
Unskippable_ads_•

I've had all demon games where I didn't find a Wrath weaver OR Soul rewinder within the first 4-5 turns. I basically just auto lost that game because by the time I did find either of them, everyone else already had well established boards and I couldn't catch up.

Which is my probelm with all 1 tribe lobbies. Every tribe scales at different rates, with Murlocs you sacrifice early game for a strong mid-late game comp. With Demons, you need a strong early game to scale into the late game. Unfortunately, if you miss in the demon lobby, you just straight up don't stand a chance.

1