Source
r/PoliticalDiscussion•
level1

Would any modern English-speaking person describe US "conservatives" as "liberals"?

I know that modern US conservatism is ideologically similar to 1700s liberals. But can anyone cite a case of a modern person, in English, describing as a liberal what I would call a conservative, or identifying themselves as liberal when espousing ideas that would be considered conservative in the US? I hear it said all the time that liberal means something else outside of the US, but when I hear people talk about UK, Canadian, and Australian politics (the other examples of English speaking politics that I am familiar with), they use the terms "liberal" and "conservative" in ways that are familiar to me. I've never actually heard the terms used to mean something else. Can someone cite some evidence of this claim?

Posted Feb 9, 2013, 4:25 AM UTC

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nickb64•

I've heard/seen a number of people refer to themselves as "classical liberals"

3
level1OP•

What is the difference between classical liberalism and what is today called (right-)libertarianism?

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[deleted]•

Pragmatism.

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ex-lion-tamer•

I often see economist and especially philosophers (especially Marxists) refer to what passes for conservatism as neoliberalism, i.e. a return to classic liberalism.

So no, most would never call Mitt Romney a liberal. But a neoliberal? Absolutely.

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1632•

neoliberalism, i.e. a return to classic liberalism.

Please check your sources, neoliberalism is not a return to classic liberalism. Both concepts are not identical, they never were.

1
TodaysIllusion•

Uh from the Libertarian dictionary. . . .

1
[deleted]•

Liberal-Conservatives, maybe, but they are really just authoritarian capitalists who advocate government meddling in the lives of people (exception = gun rights) and laissez-faire economics/ political-industrial complex.

3
righthandoftyr•

In the US, the terms 'conservative' and 'liberal' have come to mean 'right' and 'left'. And often just 'Republican' and 'Democrat'. The "1700s liberals" you're referring to is what would today be called a 'classical liberal'. But any well informed person that means 'classical liberal' wouldn't use just the unqualified form of 'liberal'. Just plain 'liberal' now means 'social democrat'. Classical liberals are very different from the social democrats of today's left, but they really aren't a good match for right-wing conservatives either. The closest thing in American politics to the classical definition of liberalism would be the Libertarian party. So no, I wouldn't describe US conservatives as 'liberal', but then, I wouldn't describe US liberals as truly liberal according to the classical definition either.

Although, back in the 1800's a lot of European thinkers did refer to US conservatives as 'liberals' because most of the principals we built our government on fell into what was at the time considered 'liberal' thinking. So to them, the two sides in the US were 'the extreme liberals' and 'only slightly less extreme liberals'. At the time, 'conservative' meant 'in favor of theocratic monarchy', not 'in favor of limited government'.

Read the wikipedia entries for 'classical liberalism' and 'conservatism' for the broader definitions. For what they mean in the US, look up 'social democracy' and 'paleoconservatism'.

2
level1OP•

But who, outside of the US, uses the terms conservative and liberal to mean something else? (And again, do they speak English or another language?)

1
righthandoftyr•

In most of the English speaking world other than the US (UK, Australia, etc.), 'Liberal' means 'Classical Liberal' instead of 'Social Democrat'. So for example a British 'Liberal' is really more like a American 'Libertarian' than an American 'Liberal'. The term 'Conservative' is all over the map takes a different meaning in each culture depending on the political tradition that precedes it. So really, a 'Conservative' in any one country may or may not have much in common with a 'Conservative' in any other country.

For non-English speaking parts of the world, you still have the same parties, but the obviously wouldn't use the English labels, so the words 'liberal' and 'conservative' really have no meaning. How English speaking people would refer to them by these labels just depends on who's doing the translating, not what they would be called in their own country.

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mickey_kneecaps•

In Australia the right wing party is called The Liberal Party. Many of the political positions and policies that are defended by modern parties of the right are traditionally liberal ones (for example free trade, free markets, the rule of law, etc, but not including the social positions of today's political right). Of course, at that time liberalism was still opposed to conservatism, it is just that conservatives advocated different policies, for example protection of the agricultural economy from trade (since this is where the traditional land-owning elite derived their wealth and power from).

I also think that your question is a little unfair. You want to know about situations in which the word liberal is used to describe conservative political positions, but appear to explicitly exclude the main example: non-English-speaking countries. If you go to France or some other mainland European countries and describe yourself as a liberal, it will be understood that you are of the political right, and are mainly concerned with free-market based economic policy. An example of a European right-wing party that describes themselves as liberal is the German Free Democratic Party.

2
level1OP•

I also think that your question is a little unfair. You want to know about situations in which the word liberal is used to describe conservative political positions, but appear to explicitly exclude the main example: non-English-speaking countries.

Actually, that is exactly my point. People on reddit and elsewhere get corrected all the time for using the term liberal, when they are using it in the only way it is ever used in English. It seems like this argument is used primarily by those far outside the mainstream to prove some point about false equivalence or something. But if the terms are used differently in a country that speaks a different language than English, it should not matter, precisely because a different language is in use.

It is presented as a US-vs-Europe or US-vs-the-rest issue (even Wikipedia says so) but I have never seen any evidence that any modern English speaker (in the UK, Australia, Canada, etc) uses the terms substantially differently than the US. I don't understand how this can be seen as anything other than a English-vs-the-rest issue.

1
mickey_kneecaps•

Fair enough. I do have one more example for you though. I don't know if you read the magazine The Economist. If you do, you know that the magazine describes itself as liberal, without any adornment. Yet the economic and fiscal policies advocated by the magazine are clearly of the political right (what would be called libertarian in the US). The magazine is from the UK, and is published in English by writers who (mostly) speak English as a first language, (mostly) come from the south of England, and (mostly) attended Oxford University (indeed many are graduates of just one Oxford college, I think it is Baliol but I am not sure). So that is one example of a mainstream modern group of English speakers (with some expertise in politics no less) who use the word liberal to describe policies of the political right (and would never stoop to describing themselves as classical liberals). I do not know for sure but it is also quite possible that in the academic milieu from which the Economist draws its journalists, you could use the word liberal to describe conservative policies and be well understood in certain contexts.

1
Neitsyt_Marian•

The only example I can think of is if a market capitalist described himself as an 'economic liberal'.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
DarthRedimo•

Neocons who get mislabeled as conservatives are liberal.

1
redem•

I don't think there is anyone that would call the US GOP "liberal", they're clearly not due to their social policies and warhawk tendencies. Even on economics they're a bit of a mixed bag.

The US use of the terms seems to be entirely limited to the social sphere, whereas other places tend to use it more in the economic sense, or for both together.

1
HeadlessMarvin•

Neoliberalism is an ideology generally associated with Republicans and the right-wing. Does that answer your question?

1
LeftistsAreWeak•

Outside of the US a Liberal and Conservative typically flip meanings.

The US Liberal wants The State to think and do more for him. They also want Americans subjugated so the State can provides them more HC and "free" higher education. They are also totalitarian and want to destroy undesirable human life before it sees the light of day. They are racist because much of their rhetoric and policyh favor minorities. They elected a black man to prove they weren't racist.

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level1OP•

Can you cite a source?

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Pendit76•

All of his sources are weird YouTube videos that are Zeitgiest quality.

AKA, he has no sources.

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LeftistsAreWeak•

This reddit and the Liberal one.

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