Did brahmin stole ramayana and mahabharat from jataka tales

l wonder what the OG Buddhists would have thought of these claims. Thieves as they were, I do not suppose even they would so blatantly lie about something like this. I believe the OG Buddhists would mete out belt treatment to the people claiming that Ramayana copies Dashratha Jataka.

Here follows a simple refutation from original Buddhist sources. Buckle up.

The earliest Buddhist scriptures abound in references to Ramayana and Mahabharata (collectively called Itihasa and the 5th Veda). Even the modern apologist/commentators on the canon, such as Bhikku Sujato, cannot help but agree that “there existed an early version of both epics”.

First, we will look at Assalayana sutta, where Buddha tries to argue with a Brahmin boy, Assalayana. In it, Buddha invents beliefs supposed to be held by Brahmins of that age and defeats Assalayana. Boy do them Buddhists create their own happiness.

The introduction of the Assalayana, the young Brahmin boy, is given in the sutta as follows:

तेन खो पन समयेन अस्सलायनो नाम माणवो सावत्थियं पटिवसति दहरो, वुत्तसिरो, सोळसवस्सुद्देसिको जातिया, तिण्णं वेदानं पारगू सनिघण्डुकेटुभानं साक्खरप्पभेदानं इतिहासपञ्चमानं, पदको, वेय्याकरणो, लोकायतमहापुरिसलक्खणेसु अनवयो।

Now at that time the brahmin student Assalāyana was residing in Sāvatthī. He was young, tonsured, and sixteen years old. He had mastered the three Vedas, together with their vocabularies, ritual, phonology and etymology, and the testament as fifth. He knew philology and grammar, and was well versed in cosmology and the marks of a great man.

Also, note that, like all Buddhist scriptures, this emerges as a reactionary force against Sanatana Dharma. The writers use the legendary sage of Prashna Upanishad to show Buddha's supremacy even though we do not have any actual debates done by the Buddha on record by his opponents. All we have today is his own words (in which he is shown verbally debating) whose authenticity is basically: trust me, bro.

Buddha's ‘teaching by triumphing in debates’ career is a bit like the scene in the film The Dictator, where the King organizes his own race and then shoots the participants running faster than him, and then they bring the ribbon towards him when he gets tired

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But again, it does not matter because it is not the point.

Let us continue further.

In another source, we note a similar reference. In the Ambattha Sutta, the young Brahmin boy is introduced similarly.

Now at that time Pokkharasādi had a student named Ambaṭṭha. He was one who recited and remembered the hymns, and had mastered in the three Vedas, together with their vocabularies, ritual, phonology and etymology, and the testament as fifth. He knew philology and grammar, and was well versed in cosmology and the marks of a great man. He had been authorized as a master in his own teacher’s scriptural heritage of the three Vedas with the words:

तेन खो पन समयेन ब्राह्मणस्स पोक्खरसातिस्स अम्बट्ठो नाम माणवो अन्तेवासी होति अज्झायको मन्तधरो तिण्णं वेदानं पारगू सनिघण्डुकेटुभानं साक्खरप्पभेदानं इतिहासपञ्चमानं पदको वेय्याकरणो लोकायतमहापुरिसलक्खणेसु अनवयो अनुञ्ञातपटिञ्ञातो सके आचरियके तेविज्जके पावचने:

“What I know, you know.

“यमहं जानामि तं त्वं जानासि;

And what you know, I know.”

यं त्वं जानासि तमहं जानामी”ति।

We can safely infer that both Epics were already known to people when Buddha arrived on the scene.

By the way, this sutta is very interesting because it showcases the Buddha in his real essence.

In the same Sutta, when Ambattha, the young Brahmin boy, insults the Shakyas, the venerable one loses his shit and first tries to show how highborn the Shakyas are and that Ambatthas lineage descends from a slave girl who gave birth to a black goblin.

अथ खो भगवतो एतदहोसि:

Then it occurred to the Buddha,

“अतिबाळ्हं खो अयं अम्बट्ठो माणवो सक्येसु इब्भवादेन निम्मादेति, यन्नूनाहं गोत्तं पुच्छेय्यन्”ति।

“This Ambaṭṭha puts the Sakyans down way too much by calling them primitives. Why don’t I ask him about his own clan?”

अथ खो भगवा अम्बट्ठं माणवं एतदवोच:

So the Buddha said to him,

“कथं गोत्तोसि, अम्बट्ठा”ति?

“What is your clan, Ambaṭṭha?”

“कण्हायनोहमस्मि, भो गोतमा”ति।

“I am a Kaṇhāyana, Mister Gotama.”

“पोराणं खो पन ते, अम्बट्ठ, मातापेत्तिकं नामगोत्तं अनुस्सरतो अय्यपुत्ता सक्या भवन्ति; दासिपुत्तो त्वमसि सक्यानं।

“But, recollecting the ancient name and clan of your mother and father, the Sakyans were the children of the masters, while you’re descended from the son of a slavegirl of the Sakyans.

सक्या खो पन, अम्बट्ठ, राजानं ओक्काकं पितामहं दहन्ति।

But the Sakyans regard King Okkāka as their grandfather.

…..

रञ्ञो खो पन, अम्बट्ठ, ओक्काकस्स दिसा नाम दासी अहोसि।

Now, King Okkāka had a slavegirl named Disā.

सा कण्हं नाम जनेसि।

She gave birth to a boy named “Black”.

जातो कण्हो पब्याहासि:

When he was born, Black Boy said:

‘धोवथ मं, अम्म, नहापेथ मं अम्म, इमस्मा मं असुचिस्मा परिमोचेथ, अत्थाय वो भविस्सामीऽति।

‘Wash me, mum, bathe me! Get this filth off of me! I will be useful for you!’

यथा खो पन, अम्बट्ठ, एतरहि मनुस्सा पिसाचे दिस्वा ‘पिसाचाऽति सञ्जानन्ति;

Whereas these days when people see goblins they recognize them as goblins,

एवमेव खो, अम्बट्ठ, तेन खो पन समयेन मनुस्सा पिसाचे ‘कण्हाऽति सञ्जानन्ति।

in those days they recognized goblins as ‘blackboys’.

ते एवमाहंसु:

They said:

‘अयं जातो पब्याहासि, कण्हो जातो, पिसाचो जातोऽति।

‘He spoke as soon as he was born—a blackboy is born! A goblin is born!’

तदग्गे खो पन, अम्बट्ठ, कण्हायना पञ्ञायन्ति, सो च कण्हायनानं पुब्बपुरिसो।

From that day on the Kaṇhāyanas were proclaimed, and he was their founder.

इति खो ते, अम्बट्ठ, पोराणं मातापेत्तिकं नामगोत्तं अनुस्सरतो अय्यपुत्ता सक्या भवन्ति, दासिपुत्तो त्वमसि सक्यानन्”ति।

That’s how, recollecting the ancient name and clan of your mother and father, the Sakyans were the children of the masters, while you’re descended from the son of a slavegirl of the Sakyans.”

Then, the venerable one threatens Ambattha that his head will burst open if he does not engage him:

अथ खो भगवा अम्बट्ठं माणवं एतदवोच:

So the Buddha said to Ambaṭṭha,

“अयं खो पन ते, अम्बट्ठ, सहधम्मिको पञ्हो आगच्छति, अकामा ब्याकातब्बो।

“Well, Ambaṭṭha, there’s a legitimate question that comes up. You won’t like it, but you ought to answer anyway.

सचे त्वं न ब्याकरिस्ससि, अञ्ञेन वा अञ्ञं पटिचरिस्ससि, तुण्ही वा भविस्ससि, पक्कमिस्ससि वा एत्थेव ते सत्तधा मुद्धा फलिस्सति।

If you fail to answer—by dodging the issue, remaining silent, or leaving—your head will explode into seven pieces right here.

तं किं मञ्ञसि, अम्बट्ठ,

What do you think, Ambaṭṭha?

किन्ति ते सुतं ब्राह्मणानं वुद्धानं महल्लकानं आचरियपाचरियानं भासमानानं कुतोपभुतिका कण्हायना, को च कण्हायनानं पुब्बपुरिसो”ति?

According to what you have heard from elderly and senior brahmins, the teachers of teachers, what is the origin of the Kaṇhāyanas, and who is their founder?”

एवं वुत्ते, अम्बट्ठो माणवो तुण्ही अहोसि।

When he said this, Ambaṭṭha kept silent.

दुतियम्पि खो भगवा अम्बट्ठं माणवं एतदवोच:

“तं किं मञ्ञसि, अम्बट्ठ, किन्ति ते सुतं ब्राह्मणानं वुद्धानं महल्लकानं आचरियपाचरियानं भासमानानं कुतोपभुतिका कण्हायना, को च कण्हायनानं पुब्बपुरिसो”ति?

For a second time, the Buddha put the question,

दुतियम्पि खो अम्बट्ठो माणवो तुण्ही अहोसि।

and for a second time Ambaṭṭha kept silent.

अथ खो भगवा अम्बट्ठं माणवं एतदवोच:

So the Buddha said to him,

“ब्याकरोहि दानि, अम्बट्ठ, न दानि, ते तुण्हीभावस्स कालो।

“Answer now, Ambaṭṭha. Now is not the time for silence.

यो खो, अम्बट्ठ, तथागतेन यावततियकं सहधम्मिकं पञ्हं पुट्ठो न ब्याकरोति, एत्थेवस्स सत्तधा मुद्धा फलिस्सती”ति।

If someone fails to answer a legitimate question when asked three times by the Buddha, their head explodes into seven pieces there and then.”

Be that as it may, let us move on.

There is another reference to the Epics. This time, it is a direct reference to the epics in a traditional exegesis work. In Dighnakaya's Attakatha commentary Sumaṅgalavilāsinī, Buddhagosha writes:

अनत्वविञ्ञापिका कायवचीपयोगसमुट्ठापिका अकुसलचेतना सम्फप्पलापो। सो आसेवनमन्दताय अप्पसावज्जो, आसेवनमहन्तताय महासावज्जो, तस्स द्वे सम्भारा भारतयुद्धसीताहरणादिनिरत्थककथापुरेक्खारता, तथारूपी कथा कथनञ्च ।

भारतयुद्ध is Mahabharata and सीताहरण is Ramayanam. The Buddha considers these epics filled with wrong teachings because there is much violence in them, so therefore, it became incumbent on the Buddhists to retell the stories, which are now in the form of Dashrath Jataka.

That is not my interpretation, by the way. That is what Buddhaghosha comments.

Talk about a comedy of errors in this game where नवबोद्ध like scijeny try to say we copied from them.

Here ends a roughly lengthy refutation from their own Buddhist sources.

:)

As always, Readers are free to use the material as they see fit; no need to give credit or anything. My purpose, as always, is to spread correct information and knowledge and not credit-hogging. Do with this information whatever you please.