Source
r/twitchplayspokemon•
psy_commando

TPP doesn't need trolls anymore ! We can do it ourselves !

Some people decided to buy potion in democracy. Fine, I don't care. I didn't input a thing and let them do their thing.

Then, half the chat goes batshit insane over it and try to open the menu, to toss the potions.. With all our shitty tms still in there.. tms which can mess up any pokemons on our team..

And when we got into a battle, they spamed right to use up the potion.. And it made us use normal type attacks on mighty until it fainted from the bs.. And same with the other pokes.. But mighty is just ironic, given this pointless debate was most detrimental to his training, given it was stuck in the back for so long, and etc..

Can people dealing with their unhealthy fanaticism please do so outside of the TPP chat ? Because some of us are playing a game, and actually care about it more than dumb philosophical debates about right or wrong in a game over a stream.. Or whatever that debate is about..

We're in this together and need to cooperate and tolerate eachothers, and I think that's the main part of the TPP experiment/thrill.. More than whether we're using democracy or anarchy..

Posted Apr 11, 2014, 6:17 AM UTC

1132
TheObserver99•

Some of those people are also trying to actually heal our mons, too.

Potions in the bag just screws up the stream's ability to strategize.

4
psy_commandoOPDodging Blizzards since 2014•

That's possible, but when we're at nearly full health its a little early for healing.

But yeah, I realize at one point we were trying to use them and honestly that's not the problem.

The problem is that we hate eachother so much that we don't care about scuttling the ship while we're aboard, as long as the others go down too..

3
DemonWTFThe Dome's Blessed Ballot Box•

I'm not one of them... but some people don't care about winning, infact they rather not win, because it defies their philosophical reasoning for the stream, and they take that VERY SERIOUSLY.

3
Hezolin•

I was not paying attention to the chat during the last run.

Is it sad that going just by the stream, the trolling looked like our normal playstyle to me?

1
Grifen88ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ•

Can't tell to be honest. Due to stream delay and what not, wrong commands will inevitably be input and parsed.

1
VikingNipplesTookis Affiliate•

Why is okay for some people to buy a potion, but wrong for others to throw it away? Can't we just agree to disagree without calling each other trolls?

1
AskedToRise•

But tossing items intentionally IS trolling, whether or not it's justified. If we caught a Rayquaza with Democracy and people released it for being too cheap (which i agree with), it's still trolling.

2
VikingNipplesTookis Affiliate•

whether or not it's justified

I'm not going to argue that it is justified, but how can something that's justified be trolling? They're not out to ruin your day; they're out to have fun with the game their way. The fact that that ruins your day is a conflict of interests, not malice on their part. (Though some people are just trolling, yeah.)

1
AskedToRise•

What about Destiny's publicity stunt from TPP Red? By your logic we were all incorrect in calling it trolling since it was just a "conflict of interest" between wanting to get infamous among his competitor's fans and wanting to have Pokémon in our party.

And what about the people who just want to give the almighty PC the sacrifices it demands? Isn't that just a religious dispute?

1
VikingNipplesTookis Affiliate•

Destiny wasn't actually a player of TPP; he was just raiding. As for the PC, sure; if they honestly think we need to get rid of something tainted by democracy. Some people also just find the PC exciting because anything can happen.

2
psy_commandoOPDodging Blizzards since 2014•

Well its just that, in order to achieve something we have to reach a certain level of consensus.

When people are imposing their ideas on other through threats and sabotage, we're breaking the consensus and creating division. And others will try to get revenge, but in their revenge they'll hurt other people, who will then try to get revenge as well. And it's going to escalate like that..

It pretty much went that way during the PC fiasco in Mauville.. And right now, we really need everyone to cooperate to finish the game.

So there is no point in letting this nonsense go on. Or we're just shooting ourselves in the foot.

2
VikingNipplesTookis Affiliate•

Why is it that anarchists have to cooperate with democrats and not the other way around? I'm personally willing to yield on issues like teaching TMs and buying potions in democracy, but I don't blame anyone who isn't. We all have different opinions, and being in the majority shouldn't mean a particular opinion is given more weight. Sabotage is the only way they can enforce their will, and I don't think it's any worse than using democracy to enforce one's will. Democracy looks pleasant because it's orderly and it's what the majority want, but it's just as bad in that someone else's will is being contradicted.

tl;dr: I think everyone should be allowed to do what they want without being harassed as a troll.

Edit: I realized I didn't explain an important part: getting angry and yelling at each other is the problem. Being at odds with each other is in itself fine.

1
psy_commandoOPDodging Blizzards since 2014•

That's besides the point..
Anarchy and Democracy are irrelevant..

The only thing I meant by people having the majority during demo, is that more people were trying to go for it than to stop it.. Only that.

Its not a matter of opinion here.. You're free to have one, but you don't have to sabotage things to force your opinion on others if its actually counter productive, risky, unfair, and mean towards them and yourself.. You gotta rationalize things, and not go emotional on it. Take the good out of the bad..

Like, if you'd think a friend of yours is ugly, and someone praise that person and tell him/her that he/she's pretty, you're not going to say that the other person is lying, and you think that he/she is really ugly.. Because it wouldn't be really worth it in the end, you'd make a friend angry/sad, just so you could say what you thought even if it didn't really serve any purpose..

We're a community, and we need to sacrifice some things to be able to work together.. You can't blame people for not wanting to get rid of something they wanted/needed for a long time, only because some think its cheating, or not a good thing.. Especially when its actually logically a good thing, and worth nothing trying it out..
The reasons people brought up in this incident are not good enough reasons to cripple ourselves, as they're highly subjective, and have less advantages than disadvantages..

This is literally the eternal emotions vs logic debate..

Like all these people that wanted their favorite pokemon on the team.. They did exactly the same as the people who tried to sabotage the use of potion during the E4.. They made us go for that pokemon, even though using the PC would just set us back, and their pokemon wouldn't help us much besides looking cool. (In our context of course)

In the end we lost pokemon in the process. Just as we could have lost some of our most important moves to random TM usage thanks to start spamming/ attempts to use the bag to toss them, during that potion sabotage thing.. Not to mention the time we wasted arguing about it, and failing a run on purpose to close the argument.

Think of it like this: If you'd make a sand castle with someone else, and it was a really elaborate sand castle that took a lot of time from both of you to make.

But then, that person would use a bucket or pot you really don't like to make some of the finishing touch on the castle. And you'd decide to destroy it because of that.. He/she won't be happy about it because you destroyed everything he/she worked hard on.. And you'd be hurting yourself too, destroying your own work, for something petty, and for no real advantages or logical reasons.

The other would then proceed to settle the score, and maybe destroy a sand castle you've made with someone else. And in turn, anger that other someone.. And this can go on and on.
Escalating violence can only be stopped if at one point someone let it slide.. And that is likely to happen only early on, before it gets out of hands..

When doing anything with others, you make the choice to suppress, to a certain extent, your desires and opinions, in exchange for collaboration, trust, and mutual respect.

However, there is always a threshold for everyone, a certain point after which its just too much. Those with a lower threshold will cause serious issues to the others, and be eventually shunt by them. Given that they're all paying the price for collaborating, its unfair for them to have to restrain some of their desires and opinions for facilitating collaboration, when others ruins the fruit of their sacrifice for their own benefit and thus get to impose their opinions/desires..

Also, sorry about the book I just wrote.. I'm not sure exactly how to explain all this, given its a really complex issue, so I need a lot of examples..

EDIT: I didn't see it when I wrote this, but in your edit, you totally got it right !

We can disagree, but we gotta gauge the good vs the bad before attempting something.. And in this case, our goal was to finish the game. And sabotaging some of our chances at finishing it is not worth it. Especially if its just to have things go the exact way some people want it to go, with no regard towards progress.

1
InternetLyingPolice•

INTERNET POLICE! GET DOWN ON THE GROUND!

Alleged liar please step forward with your hands above your head!

^^Just ^^a ^^silly, ^^in-development ^^bot ^^by ^^/u/Antrikshy.

0
bbqftw•

It happened back in TPP Red. People were upset that Zapdos was changed to lead off vs Lorelei. So they repeatedly spammed right to switch out. Relax, they will generally cool off after 2-3 runs.

Some things never change.

0
psy_commandoOPDodging Blizzards since 2014•

Well, the thing is. Emerald is particular, because democracy was only enabled slightly before the 8th gym. And it caused a stir, and it never settled.. Its actually escalating even..

1
BigFatMantis•

The problem with everything you said though is that the people you are berating are ALSO playing a game, and trying to play it their way. That's the beauty of this social experiment, it's perfect for the streamer. We are playing the same game you've played, and have worked hard throughout the whole game, struggling for WEEKS trying to get this far, trying to get this strong, and maybe some of us want the victory to be as sweet as it can get. Yeah that may not be what you think, but for the same reasons we shouldn't be telling you what to do, you shouldn't be telling us what to do. We're all a part of this.

-1†
bbqftw•

So, are you going to troll to the end, seeing as the democracy use irreversibly taints this run?

If not, then hitting right on Glacia is just a simple temper tantrum, and nothing more.

2
BigFatMantis•

Of course not, I just want to waste the potions is all. Once they're gone I'll try to win with everyone else. It's ok if we win, I won't consider it "tainted" so much. But that doesn't mean I'm not going to try for a more feel good victory.

-2
bbqftw•

it is a lot more challenging to build something than to destroy it.

4
BigFatMantis•

I 100% agree with that statement.

1
psy_commandoOPDodging Blizzards since 2014•

I'm just literally telling you this, but in frustrated-speak: "When you're going extremist, you're hurting us. So please be more mindful of the innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire.."

Its your business whether you're going to continue or stop, I don't have any power on that.

Lets say you were playing chess with someone, and he rage and throws the chessboard on the ground for x reasons, and you spend the rest of your free time finding and picking up the pieces..

You're not playing anymore, its not a game, you're cleaning up the mess your partner did when he was raging.. He had a good time, but you didn't.. And its not because of preferences.. Its because he had fun at your expense, he got what he wanted in the end even if it was counter productive for the actual game, but he had the last laugh..

The issue is more one of lack of awareness of the others, at one point you have to realize that your personal liberty ends where someone else's personal liberty starts..

Doing risky things for the sole purpose of punishing the others that didn't play by your rules breaks the game for everyone.. And it causes escalation.. People will keep a grudge and retaliate in ways that don't necessarily make sense or hurt only the people they're settling their score with.. And its hard to stop all this once its started..

Don't we all put up with choices we make collectively, for the sake of the game, and progress, and for the others ? Like when we had to leave our favorite pokemons behind in the PC, just to finish the game for the majority that wanted progress..

How is respecting the choice of others to use democracy, if not successfully countered, for even the most random thing, or whatever really, any different ?

Honestly, I don't like democracy more than anyone else. But its a tool and it has more advantages than downsides in some specific cases..

Actually, I'll call it voting mode, so we can't paint a big evil face on it, because its really just that, a voting mode for the next input..

And we've all worked hard on this run, I never said the contrary.

But a victory can be sweet in many different ways for different people.. You're assuming your reasons suits everyone from the way you say it.. As if a "sweet victory" is something universal. Some people do nuzlockes and would never go back to playing pokemon without the nuzlocke rules.. And their sweetest victory is to finish the game with those rules. While others would never have a good time with nuzlocke rules, and it would sour their victory..

2
BigFatMantis•

All I have to say is this:

If the game is beaten in Anarchy, without using the aid of democracy to buy potions, everyone is happy with it. Nobody will say "THAT'S CHEAP, ANARCHY IS CHEATING, THAT'S NO FUN." Nobody says that, everyone is thrilled and excited with the victory. But if the opposite happens, there's a good chunk of people that are NOT happy. The only way to make mostly EVERYONE happy with the victory is by finding a way to win without any of these problems. But, like you said, it's all a matter of opinion. I can't change yours, and you can't change mine so easily.

1
psy_commandoOPDodging Blizzards since 2014•

The whole issue in this, is the people stuck in-between the two sides fighting over the game.. They're caught between both sides and getting their game experience ruined for really, really petty reasons..

If you're adhering to an ideal, which you think everyone follows, and enforce punishment if there is a deviation from that ideal, then you're not playing your way, your making others play your way.. Retaliation and sabotage aren't a matter of opinion, they only aims at hurting others, or creating leverage or fear.

That's the main issue I got with this whole thing. I don't care what your opinions are, its none of my business anyways. I'm just asking for some common sense.. So we don't have to risk deleting our best moves with tms because some people won the voting mode, in majority, and bought potions with it.. Its not worth it, and its counter-productive..

Also anything in the same nature that happened in the past.. Like when we got stuck a really long time in lilicove with pc trolls and whatnot, and when some people got us to leave using voting mode, in majority again, others tried to get us stuck back in lilicove once we stopped voting mode...

That's just really mean, unfair and egoistical.. There was absolutely no point in doing that at all besides hurting others..

2
BigFatMantis•

Well, I'm sorry for all of that. I do agree to some extent to what you're saying, and for the record I never pressed Start outside of battle to try to toss item because I DIDN'T want to teach crappy TMs on accident, and told others the same. I actually am usually very moderate and in between on most of these issues, it's just I draw the line battling and buying recovery items. I'll try to be more reasonable in the future, but if I really don't like something and feel it's taking away from some people's experience, I am still going to try to fix it. Maybe not by such extreme methods, but I do believe that it's best for everybody if the outcome that everybody can be happy with occurs.

2
praisebirdjesus•

To be fair, buying potions in democracy, and using them that way is forcing people to play that way, as it affects the run.

1
bbqftw•

The way I see it - this is a situation in which people work together (it does require actual coordination in demo, you know) to accomplish a goal, all to have it destroyed by a group who have determined that it was "too easy." Of course, there's no objective standard for too easy, and the standard is clearly not the prevailing one in most people's eyes, otherwise democracy wouldn't have succeeded.

Essentially, what you're doing in your case is saying "I know better than the rest of you, and my fun is more important than yours." which is perfectly fine according to the streams rules after all, I wish you'd be honest about it and not couch it in terms of ideals though.

just keep in mind that there's real investment by people to keep entering inputs, and when you repeatedly and arbitrarily nullify their efforts (just like any ledge, elite 4 runs are a fragile system - a wrong input basically nullifies a complete run on Sidney and Glacia), don't be surprised when they are discouraged from caring about the stream altogether. This is exactly what happened during PCwars. Sure, people got their beloved Trapinch and Shedinja in the party, but at what cost?

Why bother trying to rise above the RNG and use the correct moves when some aggrieved idealists has decided in his infinite wisdom that the run was 'too easy' and easily wipes out 20-30 perfect inputs?

Fun for you, perhaps. But I don't see how that's preserving the fun for everyone.

1
praisebirdjesus•

TPP wasn't about progress until streamer learned he could make more money that way.

-5
clinesto•

what is wrong with u

3
AskedToRise•

Other way around, bro. First he said he wanted us to beat the E4, then later started talking about a social experiment.

1