Source
r/TwoXChromosomes•
lavenderblue

Thoughts on the state of comments after the defaulting and how to make it better

Reading the PSA: Rape Happens thread clarified my thoughts on why I am finding the defaulting so annoying.

This is a flawed metaphor, but bear with me. Imagine that we are a calculus club. We sit around all day talking about calculus, when suddenly a group of people barge in and demand an explanation as to why "2+2=4." We say "Because addition, but that really isn't what we are talking about today. Feel free to sit in, but we are talking about calculus." They say "Tell us what it means you fucking Calcunazi bitch."

I found myself very frustrated in the PSA thread because there were some comments that were so erroneously wrong or questions that were very basic, that I couldn't not answer. I just couldn't let a person ask "Wait, consensual sex can turn to rape without someone fighting? Have I been raping my girlfriend?" without answering. I COULDN'T. Continuing without answering would have been like playing a guitar without tuning it.

BUT that wasn't the point of the thread! And it was so incredibly frustrating to see comment after comment with people either wondering what 2+2= or insisting that 4 isn't the correct answer. There is obviously need for dialogue, but TwoX wasn't supposed to be that place. It was supposed to be a place where we already all agreed that 2+2=4 and that a yes can change to a no mid sex.

The only solution I can see, now that we are defaulted, is to simply not engage. Either downvote without replying (since very basic questions like that do not add to the discussion) and completely ignore the outraged "EDIT: I'm being downvoted for asking a fucking question! Seriously!" OR decide as a subreddit to post a standard answer like "This isn't what we are discussing here; feel free to post to r/askwomen".

Posted May 16, 2014, 1:41 PM UTC

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snarktrovert•

The real problem is that 2XC started as a discussion forum by women and for women, and since becoming a default it's been treated (especially in the comments) as an education forum. And the posters asking the questions tend to get really offended if you point out that the purpose of this place actually isn't to educate you on 101 level stuff and nobody is obliged to provide them with said education.

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camelus_•

We could all get together and come up with a huge FAQ? It could have the "basics" of what you need to understand to fully participate in this sub? Maybe point at some outside resources as well, some statistics, yadayadaya? At that point, it would be completely acceptable to downvote every "2+2" question with a simple, "Read the FAQ before commenting, please."

I'd be more than willing to start working on one if anybody wanted to send some basic questions they've seen or anything they think should be cleared up.

Edit: I'm at work right now but if anybody wants to start sending suggestions I can get started when I get home in an hour or so! I'll also message the mods when I get home to see if we can make this actually a thing!

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pig_and_pepper•

I think this is a great idea. Feminism/twoX basics, if you will.

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camelus_•

Right? Obviously not everyone agrees on all of the "basics" but I think we could make it broad enough while still reinforcing the ideas to get the point across.

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[deleted]•

Sooo... I'm new here (don't hurt me!) - is 2XC specifically about political feminism? Or just things related to women? I've mostly been lurking, but it seems like there's a lot of different types of posts, so it's hard to tell.

Sorry if this is stupid.

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heatheranne◖◧:彡•

Things related to women, not specifically feminism. Feminist things come up often though.

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[deleted]•

I would expect it to, of course! I'm kind of interested in the sub but I wouldn't call myself an "activist" so I wasn't sure if I'd be welcome.

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pig_and_pepper•

Well, twox started as a safe discussion place for women's topics, problems, and yes - I would say political feminism falls under that category, or perhaps just feminism in general.

You don't have to apologize, it's not a stupid question. If you read the rules and stuff in the sidebar you might be able to gather more information there, too.

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[deleted]•

Okay, I'll look into the sidebar more. I've been reading through posts the last couple days, but that might be better place to start! Thanks!

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camelus_•

Sorry, the mods said it's a no-go! I tried to explain the benefits it would have to the sub but the mod I spoke to said that:

in some contexts it is okay to have discussions about that and others not so much, and that's how we tend to moderate.

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gogogadgetpants_•

I love this.

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camelus_•

Sorry, the mods said it's a no-go! I tried to explain the benefits it would have to the sub but the mod I spoke to said that:

in some contexts it is okay to have discussions about that and others not so much, and that's how we tend to moderate.

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sherrysalt•

However, the problem with not engaging is that you know there is yet another yahoo out there was a terrible opinion. That thread is such a bummer.

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lavenderblueOP•

Agreed!!! It's one of those things were engaging makes me mad and not engaging drives me crazy. I really don't want twoX to become another place where I can't read the comment section. Any other ideas on what to do?

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[deleted]•

That was a perfect analysis.

A few years ago I created a progressive news sharing and chat site for my friends and I that got really popular with several hundred members. For a good year it started out as a wonderful place to share news and good progressive stories of change that you might not have heard on your regular news outlets. After about a year we thought our group was too much of a progressive echo chamber and we started to invite in people with alternative view points. WORST DECISION EVER.

It ended up destroying our site within six months. Instead of discussing and learning about progressive ideas with a bunch of like-minded progressives, we ended up defending very simple basic progressive principles against conservatives. It just became a liberal vs conservative back and forth argument, instead of a forward moving discussion. Within 6 months all the progressives but the few who really enjoy arguing left the forum, and all that was left was a few argumentative conservatives and liberals arguing amongst themselves.

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autumnWheat•

I like how you destroyed the progressive news site by being too progressive.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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ohtheheavywater•

We can't educate all the yahoos. My default is to ignore/downvote the 2+2 questions. But, as someone who's also active on r/AskWomen*, I don't want the stupid/rude questions going over there either. From my experience, AW doesn't want to answer those questions any more than 2X. The most popular posts there are women talking to women. We routinely downvote or ignore dumb questions from men, which there aren't so much aggressively anti-feminist as desperate pleas for dating advice: "Can I date you in a house? Can I date you with a mouse? Can I date you in a box? Can I date you with a fox?" or else requests for wank fodder. If we stick to OP's (perfect) analogy, it's like nobody wants to teach the remedial eighth-graders who still can't accept that 2+2=4.

*I'm not involved enough in this sub or AW to know why we're supposed to be enemies, so I spend time on both.

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notsoinsaneguy•

It's pretty rare that someone will change their opinion due to an internet post. If anything, they'll just discredit people who say shit that they don't believe. You might change the person by engaging them, but it is pretty unlikely.

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[deleted]•

It's pretty rare that someone will change their opinion due to an internet post.

A person isn't likely to go from -10 to +10 on an issue from one comment, but a person is very likely to go from -10 to -8 if a +10 person gives a convincing argument. Overtime, internet comments can make a difference in how people view certain issues.

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notsoinsaneguy•

Really depends how open minded people are. You're more likely to get someone from a -10 to a -8 if you give an argument from the 0 perspective as opposed to one from the +10 perspective, since a lot of people are just going to discredit the entire argument on the basis that they completely disagree. Few people will outright call someone a moron for thinking something that they strongly disagree with, but a lot of people surely think it.

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sherrysalt•

Exactly. Yet we are put in a position where we feel obligated to engage, when mostly I just want to talk about lady things instead of getting into fights.

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tvc_15•

honestly though? i don't think they really want to learn. they're trying to pick a fight. they come in here with their minds already made up, just itching to teach us little ladies a lesson.

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satanslandlady•

I stopped reading last night after seeing the results of that thread. So frustrating but it wasn't the first time since this sub went default. So many threads in the queue being downvoted to the negatives when they aren't bad threads. I try to upvote. I've never upvoted so much on reddit but it doesn't always work.

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whitneyface•

I'm upvoting and downvoting and reporting with so much gusto.

Sisters in arms!

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setsumaeu•

Or we could stop being a default

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MsRhuby•

I know that r/nosleep has a rule that all posts are to be considered true. It's a fiction-writing sub, but for it to work, they say no-one is allowed to question the post (such as loopholes, etc.). Why not do that here? For example, in a rape post or trans post, comments that question what the OP is saying wouldn't be allowed.

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fckingmiracles•

That is indeed a very interesting concept/idea.

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mbrunswick•

We say "Because addition, but that really isn't what we are talking about today. Feel free to sit in, but we are talking about calculus." They say "Tell us what it means you fucking Calcunazi bitch."

I'll admit it, I laughed really hard at Calcunazi. The next time someone corrects my math when I'm trying to figure out the tip at a restaurant, I'm pulling that one out.

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MeghanAM∞❤∞•

I'm interested in reading suggestions here, speaking as a member not a mod.

The first thing I thought was maybe something like an AskReddit-style "serious" tag, because I like the way that has worked in that community. But what would the tag say, and what would it ban exactly? I still think some kind of tagging could maybe work, but my brain just isn't coming up with anything.

Prior to the defaulting, we weren't particularly strict about sending people to other, more-specific subs with their posts. Many posts were maybe better-suited to AskWomen or Fashion or Mommit, but the posts worked and the community worked with them. Would it be better to redirect more now?

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lavenderblueOP•

Yeah I thought about a tag too. I was amazed at how much better the "Serious" tag made AskReddit. But yeah, you can't really make it ban "stupid questions."

So far, I actually haven't been as troubled by the posts as much as the comments. Most of the posts have seemed on topic and interesting, or at least unchanged from before the defaulting. It's the comments that are gettin' me down.

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heatheranne◖◧:彡•

Possibly a [Discussion] tag for debates and stuff and a [Support] Tag for threads free from debate?

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[deleted]•

a [Support] Tag for threads free from debate?

I think that may be all we need. I don't think we'll be able to contain the argumentative 2+2=4ers to just threads with a [discussion] or [debate] tag, but we may be able to keep them out of threads with a [support only; not for debate] tag.

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leedlebug•

There's a dual purpose to the tags - they give a directive to users, but they also give mods a clear heuristic for when to delete borderline comments.

Right now we have a problem where there are borderline -questioning comments in (what would be) support threads, that don't get removed because they technically don't violate any rules and we don't in a general sense want to ban debate. If we had a tag on support threads, it would create a clear heuristic for when debate is allowed vs when it is unwelcome.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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T-Shirt_Ninja•

I agree with u/pages37-bearwitch; a [Support] tag would make it clear that the OP doesn't want to deal with a debate in the thread, and that would make it easy to moderate any comments that don't follow that rule.

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annaandandy•

I really like the idea of the tags.

I hope I'm wrong, but I would predict that there would be a lot more downvoting on these threads because some people on the default threads have the attitude that if someone posts on the internet, it immediately opens the OP to scrutiny.

Edit: Here's an example I just ran across. Someone posted a picture of herself in her graduation gown for IFF. When she commented saying that she got her degree in film, there were a subsequent comments that were berating her choice of study. And here is the kind of response I'm talking about.

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leedlebug•

I like the idea of tagging [Discussion] vs [Support], and enforcing stricter commenting rules on [Support] threads.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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sonpansatan•

Assuming that there will be no help from the moderators, download Reddit Enhancement Suite. Troll post --> Downvote --> Ignore User. It's not a perfect solution, but it should cut down on the dedicated trolls.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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lavenderblueOP•

I wasn't necessarily talking about the statistics trend on the thread. I was talking about even more basic comments. I really did reply to a person saying "Wtf can you explain how it was rape if it started off consenual and you didn't fight it?? I mean at what point mid sex could it become rape? I am genuinely curious and this thread just makes me feel like a rape all my girlfriends but they don't say anything :("

The whole statistics/anecdote stuff I understand annoyed some people, but I really meant the very bottom of the barrel questions like the one I listed. While the thread wasn't full of them, they were present, and it was responding to this particularly stupid question that made me realize the trend of how I've been feeling in the comment section over the last few days.

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[deleted]•

Granted, the person you responded to asked a pretty silly question, but it's a silly question with a simple, concise answer: consensual sex becomes nonconsensual once consent is verbally withdrawn. I'm sure having to spell these sort of basic things out to all of the new visitors is frustrating, but it's probably not the end of the world.

Incidentally, I feel 2X was much better prior to becoming a default. But it is a default and will be a default for the foreseeable future. My advice would be to either ignore such questions or else come up with concise ways of explaining them.

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zachmoosey•

I hope that it has to be verbal. I'm terrified of a situation where it starts verbally consensual but they mentally back out without telling me

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zachmoosey•

Agreed. Rape is already a terrible crime and far too common without needing to descend into distorting it. It doesn't need distortion: can't we just discuss how bad and common it is without resorting to pseudo-statistics

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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[deleted]•

This subreddit doesn't exactly evoke an awareness that there are prerequisites, at least not until you read the comments... good lord..

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