r/Fantasy•
ristea

A bias when you recommend not reading in published order

We've all seen it before: a new reader is looking to dive into a popular (and often long) series, and some recommendations are to begin somewhere not at the beginning (e.g., Deadhouse Gates for Malazan, Summer Knight for Dresden, etc.).

I wonder if we overlook a bias that we have, as readers who started at the beginning.

Unless you have actually, literally also began that series somewhere other than at the first book, how can you be sure that your recommendation will work?

It's easy to say "oh, begin with book 4, you'll catch up quickly," but what about all the time you spent with characters and the world up until then? That gave you a favourable outlook on the series, and undoubtedly made you read that 4th book in a different light.

Summer Knight was a great read, but that's partly because I already knew about Harry, and Murphy, and Bob, and the style of the books.

Would it be the same experience for someone who is fresh?

tl;dr: If you tell someone to jump straight into book four, they will have a different experience than your reading of book four, since they lack the appropriate baggage and experience of the previous three novels.

Posted Jun 4, 2014, 5:58 AM UTC

3533
MikeOfThePalaceWorldbuilders•

I've never actually seen anyone do this for anything except Discworld.

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risteaOP•

I just ran into it here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1849949

And people in this sub often recommend starting with DG for those who are struggling with Malazan.

Or sometimes it's to read Wheel of Time 1-6, and then 11-14. Sure, the last books are better, but there is a whole lot that happens in 7-10 that we may not notice consciously which added to our enjoyment of the final books.

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[deleted]•

I feel like I see people asking if they can skip the first Malazan Book somewhat regularly, followed by a flood of people telling them not to. I've never seen it popularly recommended. Same with TWoT.

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DrStalker•

Discworld is not one series; it's half a dozen series set in the same universe. (and a few extra books)

You don't need to start with the first book published, but you do want to start a particular series from the start. Pretty Diagram

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Randal_Thor•

I love this chart, I hope it gets updated at some point to stay relevant.

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DrStalker•

It's been updated a few times already, I'm sure it will keep being updated as long as there are discworld books coming out.

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yourfaceisannoying•

Most of the time, this practice is just a concession that the early books are honestly not that good in retrospect.

Discworld books are pretty much the only example of out of sequence reading that actually works, in my opinion (though I should stress I actually recommend not doing that, as I think the first three or four books are actually better than some of the later favourites).

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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brickfrenzy•

Another example is RA Salvatore's works. I read the Dark Elf trilogy prior to the Icewind Dale trilogy (which chronologically was first) from the advice of a friend, and I thought it was an excellent choice.

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AmethystOrator•

I've seen it done for Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos series.

I've done it myself for Michelle West's three Essalyien series. Partially because she herself recommends that readers start with the most recently published series, the one that is also chronologically the earliest and contains the strongest prose, characterization, etc.

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DrStalker•

I always recommend reading books in published order, even if there is a later published prequel; the first book was designed to be read without the information in that prequel, the prequel was designed to be read once you know what happens later, why screw that up?

Skipping books only makes sense if they are not all in a series, but rather the same universe; for example I'm reading the old Shadowrun novels now and I'd recommend skipping the first 3 because they are pretty crap, have nothing to do with the later novels and do not do any essential world-building.

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risteaOP•

Yes. Thank you for that point on prequels. They are meant to be read after, not before.

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emmpp•

And presumably the first book is 'meant' to be enjoyable and readable. If intentions were everything, this debate wouldn't even come up.

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risteaOP•

This is true.

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Abstruse•

It also doesn't hurt that 2XS does a better job of introducing the Sixth World in a single book than the Secrets of Power trilogy does in three, and that it's an amazingly well-written and enjoyable book.

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Catch_42•

Your Dresden Files reference is apt for me as I'm currently trying to get through the first 3 Dresden books based on everyone saying "they get amazing from book 4!" and I'm finding it a bit of a slog (book 2 in particular was hard).

However I completely understand your point about the character growth and backstory, would Summer Knight have the same impact if I just jumped straight to it? I don't know.

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risteaOP•

I will join my voice with the chorus: persevere!

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[deleted]•

Doing the same. Just about to finish the 2nd book, it was so-so. Is the third any better?

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InfelixTurnus•

Not really. But Book 4 is the stuff. Just a little further- you could probably manage a marathon and get up to the goldmine within a day of dedicated reading.

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[deleted]•

Thanks! I have a weekend basically by myself so this sounds like a plan.

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Catch_42•

Better than the second, we're getting greater hints to the wider world/mythology that Dresden inhabits. Mention of vampire courts and trips into the Nevernever.

Also, so far, the plot feels different. I hated how book 2 was a complete re-hash of the first books plot but with added werewolves.

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[deleted]•

It's been a year since I read the first so I hadn't noticed that. I'll finish the second and start the third book tonight.

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Catch_42•

I think it was the moment...

(mini Dresden book 2 spoiler)

...Dresden ended up on the run from the police due to a misunderstanding at the exact same moment as he had in the first novel.

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ScotchDrinker•

Sometimes a series is a set of standalone stories. If the 4th book in the series is particularly good, it can make you want to learn more about a character's background, in which case your own curiosity will make the previous 3 novels even better. The Dresden Files started out like this, but that structure kinda dissolved later in the series. The Vlad Taltos novels...you can definitely just pick a book and start, in my opinion. Brust plays fun games with the timeline anyway (which I love). It isn't fantasy, but the only series I actually strongly recommend starting in a later book is the Harry Bosch novels by Michael Connelly. Don't try to read the books that take place before cell phones became commonplace, go back and read them later. I can't explain it except to say you feel the same frustration reading the earlier books that you feel when you forget your cellphone and have to go without it for a day. Much better to read those when your love of the series is more powerful than the frustration level.

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greym84•

For the love of all that is good, read Narnia in the published order. I don't know why every publisher puts them in chronological order. They aren't nearly as nuanced or well-paced that way.

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risteaOP•

I have a quick little story from Orson Scott Card I'd like to share. First heard this on Adventures in Sci-Fi Publishing or Geek's Guide to the Galaxy.

Basically OSC and his editorial team (editor, beta readers) decided to remove the opening few chapters from a book. They thought it would be best to start closer to the action.

And as far as they knew, it worked much better. It was a tighter story and they were happy with it.

However, upon publishing, the story fell flat with fans. Why? Because OSC and all those who had read the first chapters already had those in mind, and the important character development there meant that while they could enjoy the story from a later point, fans who were reading it for the first time were lost.

It was an important lesson for them to be wary of their own bias when cutting chapters, since while you can remove it from the text, it's harder to remove it from your mind.

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AmethystOrator•

I'm acutely aware of many of the strengths and weaknesses of one of my favorite authors (Michelle West) and wish that there was one easy starting point. She recommends that new readers start with the most recent, but left to my own devices, I'd actually ask a lengthy q and a to try to ascertain what really would be the best starting point, as each reader honestly does have different preferences.

I've recommended all three series as entry points depending on the request and reader, and worry more than I probably should if I gave too much info, too little, focused on the wrong thing, etc. It's just that the original entry point is mid-90's, and while not bad, doesn't do the writer nearly as much justice as her later works do. And for example, say the reader is looking for strong female characters, this isn't an example of that, despite the writer being the best writer of strong female characters that I've ever found. So do we point newbies to what they want, or tell them to start reading hundreds of other pages first?

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Flock_Together•

On the other hand, committed fans are often unable to imagine someone not being a completist or doing things "by the book," so to speak. With regards the Malazan series, there is a potential reason why some readers might be better off starting with Deadhouse Gates--Gardens of the Moon can be very off-putting, and a lot of readers never read further. Some readers are better off reading Deadhouse Gates, because it's more likely to get them hooked on the series, and then backtracking to Gardens of the Moon. And besides, GotM isn't really all that necessary as background for DG anyways.

Stress here, of course, is on "some." I agree there are tangible benefits for reading that (or any) series in order. Most of the time, I do read series in order, because I'm also one of the aforementioned "completists." One exception is Iain M. Banks' culture series, but while there are numerous references to Consider Phlebas in later books, there's no other major incentive for reading the series in order.

2
Brian•

Unless you have actually, literally also began that series somewhere other than at the first book, how can you be sure that your recommendation will work?

Frequently because I have started somewhere other than the first, or have talked to people who have. Plus, you can get a feel for these things, just as with anything else. After all, I don't know for sure that publication order will work for them, but I can certainly make an educated guess by weighing up the pros and cons of each.

For most things, I do actually recommend publication order. Where not, there's usually some reason for it. Eg. that the first few are significantly worse in quality, sufficient to put some people off, or in a different style that I know the person I'm recommending to won't like.

If you tell someone to jump straight into book four, they will have a different experience

Even when this is the case, and that difference is actually negative, there can still be good reasons to recommend it. Eg. if the first few are likely going to put off the person from even reading that far. A slightly different experience is still better than missing out completely on an experience they'd enjoy.

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risteaOP•

You make some very good points.

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bantspoons•

Honestly, you can get a LOT out of The Dresden Files read out of order. I started with Small Favor and read the rest as I found them, then started on the new one (Turn Coat at the time) when I caught up. It's still one of my favorite fantasy series. I wouldn't worry about their order to much as long as you don't start with Changes or anything after that.

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Suppafly•

Honestly, you can get a LOT out of The Dresden Files read out of order.

That's because the first half of each one is a rehashing of everything you already know about Dresden and Bob and the bar and his VW bug and what not. The actual new stuff is only about 50 pages.

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risteaOP•

Interesting! Thanks for your input.

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AmethystOrator•

Wouldn't that approach make it harder to spot the continuity changes in Dresden's timeline?

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