So I am currently watching S5E16...
I guess I wouldn't have to write a single word more because you all know the feeling.
But why do they show Joyce regaining life for a few seconds (I truly was never so relieved by seeing a moment from a tv show) and then she dies anyway? WHY??? Goddammit, she's not a leaf on the wind or something. I truly am speechless now.. wow
Posted Jul 7, 2014, 6:26 PM UTC
As a neuro nurse I can tell you that's what happens to neuro patients. I have never seen a more accurate portrayal on television of a glioma. They have a high rate recurrence rate and are very vascular (can cause a massive brain bleed leading to sudden death).
I found working with neuro surgeons there is a culture among some of them to give the best case scenario to patients instead of the worst case and breed false hope to families (I watched the surgeon on Buffy do this very thing to her and the Scobbies). As a nurse I found this practice cocky and infuriating, which is one of the reasons I switched to the cardiac cath lab. I have worn many hats in my career, like many nurses.
I think that disease was picked by the writers for a personal reason and obviously someone experienced it first hand. So sad.
I think that disease was picked by the writers for a personal reason and obviously someone experienced it first hand. So sad.
Joss's mother died of a cerebral aneurysm very much like Joyce. Not sure of the glioma connection specifically.
If a doctor pulled that shit on Joss' family that the one on the show did to Buffy may they have to walk on a bed of legos in purgatory. Maybe that's why he writes false hope so well, he's experienced it first hand.
I wanted to pause Buffy while i have my exams but I don't think it will work...
Next episode is not a bit better on the feels front as I just noticed. Joss is messing with my brain as the Two by Two guys did with River
Interesting; I'd always assumed it was simply the fact that Joyce's brain hadn't haled enough form the surgery and the aneurysm occurred at a weak spot. (I've heard brains heal very slowly so there's always a bit of a watchign period.)e
Have you ever had someone really close to you, like a parent, die? When my father died, I had some of the weirdest thoughts and reactions. I didn't personally imagine myself being able to save him, but I wasn't the one who found him. I wonder if my mom went through that? Everything else was spot on for my grieving experience though, including the vomiting, noticing little weird things (when she goes outside and the sun is bright and you hear children playing), having to be stoic for those around you who are falling apart- all of it.
He was going for absolute accuracy in the grieving process of a child for a parent, and in my experience, he was SPOT ON.
I agree completely, and I'm sorry for your loss. /hugs!/
Thank you, I appreciate that. <3
The Body is such a great episode. And yes...Joss wrote way too many great story lines that are soooo not what I wanted to see. Why didn't Buffy and Angel just get married and live happily ever after... sigh
Angel
happily
Well, there's your problem.
I know...goes to cry in a corner
I'm really glad we never saw Buffy "get married and live happily ever after." Joss told a fantastic story about a real woman, who was smart enough to know that at 22 she was still "cookie dough." Much better than any rom-com ending with Angel - or Spike, for that matter.
While I agree that a happy end would not have been fitting for the show...I disagree with the 'teenage love' or 'she was not fully grown up' argument. They went way beyond that. Especially after Angel came back from the hell dimension
If you watched Angel there's an episode where he and Spike go to Italy and run into Buffy and her new beau. Angel later starts bitching that the guy is eating his cookie dough. Nice nod to their last convo.
Then, of course, in season eight it's revealed that "Buffy" was a decoy.
See, I've never see it this way to (or at least, I never remembered seeing it this way).
I think Joss is one of the few creators to understand the value of killing off characters. Now, to be fair, I watched the show live so I watched this episode some 13 years ago, so it's fairy difficult to remember exactly what I was feeling upon first reaction like yourself.
But I think that's what makes Joss so brilliant, he's not afraid to show that even if this verse, people die, it makes the show relatable. This is even more the case with Joyce, because she died in a natural way. It saddens people because it's relatable and her condition makes it scary because that can actually happen in our reality. If you see someone die from a vampire or a magical element, it's less harsh on our emotions because we can't relate to people dying that way. But with Joyce, we really can relate to that and the episode completely captures the numbness/harshness of loosing someone. The brilliant way that Joss chooses to not use soundtrack and only include diegetic sound just brings home that realism.
I can more than understand the initial "Why Joss, why!" and that's the point and as a writer, this is where Joss has succeeded with almost everyone. So in a way, I completley understand why people have that reaction, in another way, I kinda wish more people would look at it less than Joss loving hurting fans, and more that he understands the power of a death.
My comments labelling Joss as a monster weren't quite serious. I love his shows because his characters die in those unconventional ways (at least unconventional for a show that has at least ~100 vampires/demons/gods per episode trying to kill the gang and its relatives)
Because Joss hates us.
Joss giveth, and Joss taketh away.
Joss is a master story teller. And he knows that sometimes, to tell a good story, he has to break our hearts.
I'm honestly starting to believe he just knows he's no good at happy endings, so he avoids them.
There is not a single love story in the Buffyverse that ends well. There is a difference between "sometimes, to tell a good story, he has to break our hearts" and "all good stories are sad stories".
Have you seen Dollhouse? Because...well, spoilers, but, there's some happy.
sometimes
with joss I believe you mean "every time"
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I think that, for a while at least, he forgot he could do anything else, the reason I'm no longer a real fan
I can't even argue with that
And we love him for it.
I currently don't ;)
It's an abusive relationship.
I figured it wasn't just to mess with us. Buffy seemed to feel guilty about not being able to be home in time to save her mom, with that flashback being what buffy was imagining in her head. It made an interesting contrast with how they're so busy fighting the supernatural that they almost forgot the dangers of the natural world as well (such as how Xander kept blaming it on Glory).
A lot of what happens in the episode is pulled from Joss's true life personal experiences when his own mother died.
So I learned today that Buffy's reaction was spot on and the scene in general was really realistic. I guess I subconsciously felt the same because otherwise the strong emotions wouldn't be explainable.
I have lost my grandma on christmas last year but that process was so slow that I had plenty of time to deal with it (which did not exactly make it better but it was not a shock)
Thanks for your detailed answers :)
Have you ever lost a loved one? Not trying to be condescending, but just trying to help explain.
That fantasy is very VERY real, and his use of it was... amazing.
My version of it happened before she died, but I lived the fantasy of my mother making a miraculous recovery from cancer quite vividly once or twice. I remember the night she went to the ER for kidney failure especially. I refused to go, sleeping at home, while the rest of my family was with the hospital. When the phone rang at 12:30 am, I was imagining the conversation. It was my mom, telling me the doctors had completely healed her and she'd be home soon! In reality it was a family friend telling me he was outside to pick me up, because she might not live out the night. That scene relived the shock so very perfectly.
The show is brilliant in that it shows the entire range of coping mechanisms and feelings. Anya's speech gets a lot of credit, but I think Xander's wall punch gets forgotten too easily. And his perfectly calm replies afterwords. That was me when it finally hit me she was dead.
Even the vampire scene, which i initially hated, HAD to be there. The point was life keeps happening, it doesn't take a break for you no matter how much you wish it would.
That entire episode, not sure there is a single moment that can't be tied to very real human reactions.
This is the reasoning. I had a cousin commit suicide a few years ago and I still daydream about randomly seeing her on the street. I can see her face so clear. But like the Body, there is no music or ambient noise to fill the quiet and hopeless denial deep down.
Unrelated to this, another thing I think Joss is so prefect at making relatable is dream sequences. The Dollhouse episode(The Attic) was good, but the Buffy one was great(Restless).
All the upvotes, which for me is only one. Aside from your personal experience, and my condolences for that, this is exactly what I would have said and I completely agree.
Anya's speech was emotional and Xander's wall punch definitely deserved credit, but the reaction that always got me was Willow's. I was practically cry-yelling at the TV that the damn shirt is right there
That and how Joss didn't include music. It wasn't a written out TV show in that episode. It was life. And you didn't know what was going to happen
Maaaaaan, that scene when Buffy opens the back door and just sits there. Listening to birds chirp and children playing. The world keeps on spinnin' :(. Makes me so sad inside. So real.
I love the lack of music. There is no escape from this episode, no musical score to tell you how to feel.