In Isaac Asimov's Foundation Trilogy, why does Hari Seldon even hint at the existence of the second foundation?
Why does he mention it at all in any of his writings? Why put it at risk?
Posted Aug 30, 2014, 1:42 AM UTC
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Maybe, he did the calculations so the 1st Foundation needed to know about the existence of the 2nd, but nothing more; so, when The Mule tryed to conquer the First F. he keep in mind that there's a second (foundation) that everybody says will defeat him, so he can be exposed to the Second F. and be defeated. They did the math!
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Everything in this series thus far seems so beautifully constructed and logical that I can't really accept an answer like that. That feels like the kind of thing the second foundation would want me to believe :p
My best guess is that it was just unavoidable that the internal records of Seldon's early organization could not fail to make a note of the mysterious disappearance of his upper echelon of psychohistorians. However someone with the foresight of Seldon could presumably have started training orphans or something in secret years prior to his setting up the first foundation.
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Sorry, I'm not well versed in english, but yeah, Sheldon was aware of everything (he did the math and stuff), he just put a few extra variables and speed up the process of decline and rise.
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Sheldon was aware of everything
No he wasn't, he didn't (and couldn't) predict the mule. His video recording and prediction during the Mules rise was completely different.
He may have predicted an increasing chance of random events during the development of the new empire causing a "Mule like event" to happen, but nothing more. Indeed, the second foundation was tasked to keep these small highly unlikely chances from happening.
It's possible that the mention of the second foundation "but nothing more" was required for the first foundation to work, but this was never elaborated upon.
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Sheldon did predict the mule, more or less. While he didn't know where the disruption in his plan would be, he could figure there might be. Thus the hidden 2nd and third foundations. Crouching tiger and hidden dragon. Have to conquer both seen (overt) and unseen (covert) to be successful.
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Remember that the Mule was an un-calculated move away from the plan! Since Seldon's Plan only works on human masses, not individual humans, the Mule was not/could not be predicted.
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Yes, you're right, I forgot that.
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Having only read Foundation yet (just recently picked it up, I've got a backlog of books to read through!) my best guess would be that knowledge of the second foundation would become inevitable. Shortly after the Merchant Princes I would guess that the news of both foundations would be working their way to their respective opposite ends of the galaxy. I think that there would be a greater crisis if either foundation found about about the other this way, than if they knew of each other's existence before hand. Imagine the fallout of thinking you were alone in your mission, only to find that there was a copy of that mission happening on the other side of the galaxy. One might feel betrayed and lied to, and this might lead to the leaders of an organization or government to inevitably cut off their own nose to spite their face.
Thats the impression I get with my limited knowledge at least.
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You need to read further. Your guess is very logical... but also very wrong. You will be pleased to know that your guess is similar to some guesses in the stories, though. (The two sections of the 'Second Foundation' book are called "Search by the Mule" and "Search by the Foundation".)
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Keep reading :)
Your thoughts are reasonable for where you are but the first book doesn't tell the whole story.
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I'm pretty sure it's mentioned somewhere that if all went to plan the Second Foundation would be a ready-made ruling class for the Second Empire. He needed to have them already established in the minds of the First Foundation.
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So it can be a plot point.
Is the second foundation ever mentioned in foundation at all?
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In "Foundation" it is only said that Foundations were created at the opposite ends of the galaxy, but they say no more about the Second Foundation until "Foundation and Empire".
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To start with, the other Foundation was just an escape clause for Asimov. When he wrote the first two stories of what would become the Foundation series, he had no idea where he was going with it. So, when Hari Seldon makes his first appearance at the end of the first story (published as 'Foundation' in the magazines, re-titled "The Encyclopedists" in the book), Asimov had Seldon mention a "companion Foundation at the other end of the Galaxy" just in case he, the author, might need it in later stories. It was a pre-emptive retcon, if I may coin a phrase: rather than have to create another Foundation out of nothing at a later point, Asimov mentioned it early on and then just let it lie quietly in the background until he needed it.
And, after Asimov's editor John W Campbell made him insert a disruptive influence to throw Seldon's Plan off track (the Mule), Asimov must have decided he could use this other Foundation to pull the Plan back on track (probably to spite Campbell!).
As to why Seldon himself might refer to the companion Foundation, it might have been for any number of reasons. Maybe it was to let the Foundationers know they weren't alone; this might prevent them from becoming discouraged in dark times. Maybe it was a psychohistorically calculated influence: just the right amount of encouragement to set the Foundation on the right path to the future. Maybe it was to set the scene for the day, many centuries in the future, when the Second Foundation would reveal itself to the First Foundation. Or maybe Seldon was just an old man who let this mention slip out without meaning to.
Thanks for the reply, that is some interesting back story.
I got so swept away by how well everything seems to wrap up at the end of the respective substories that it felt like there had to be a specific reason, but what you're saying probably makes more sense. At least the second foundation to get things back on track feels less like deus ex machina when it has been in the story from the beginning than it would be if he just introduced it in Second Foundation.
I would like to buffer the gentleman above as far the story goes. It would be a necessity under pyschohistorical prediction to have this connection established both for the First Foundation (acting with them in mind) AND the Second Foundation (acting with the knowledge of that in mind). This means that the Second Foundation can operate more succinctly within the First Foundation, using this purported rumour to locate (those interested in) and guide/manipulate important people in pyschohistory (those interested in finding them). Also to note, the drop came after the First Foundation managed to struggle out of their position of being a minor planet. It came at a time, per cannon, when it was needed [when more divergence possibilities appeared].