"All data, regardless of origin, must be treated equally." - How does that not mirror the ideals of Obamacare?

That quote is from the Oatmeal explanation of net neutrality.

The ACA clearly falls short of this goal ('All patients, regardless of X, must be treated equally"), but this is obviously an ideal of the left. Meanwhile the right wing (congressional politicians to be clear*) hate the idea of poor people getting the same quality of care or access that they can pay for.

A splintered, free-market internet would be a crappy, limping, ad-infested mess for the poors, while the wealthy folks at the top have access to the best of anything and everything that exists. That's what they offer in healthcare alternatives, so why should the internet be any different? In a sense, net neutrality to him is far worse than Obamacare.

Concept: Ted Cruz's statement was a reasonable way of expressing an abhorrent political position.

*Edited for clarity.

Posted Nov 12, 2014, 3:44 AM UTC · edited

266
DevonWeeks•

First of all...

Meanwhile the right wing hates the idea of poor people getting the same quality of care or access that they can pay for.

...this isn't true. I've talked at length about healthcare reforms of many kinds with all sorts of right wingers over the years, and none of them have ever held this position. Your post is pretty demagogic and isn't likely to promote much productive discussion with an opening like that. That idea is an idea that was expressed by the left, not the right, over frustration with trying to understand the right wing's opposition to a single-payer system. Now, I'm sure you could find nutty people to say anything, just like someone from the right could list any number of nutty things some leftist may have said, but doing so isn't helpful. We all know the bulk of the people in our nation aren't insane.

Secondly, NN isn't really the same thing as the ACA given the fact that NN would be affecting already implemented infrastructure whereas the ACA was trying to completely transform an existing system into something it never was and wasn't prepared to be. On scale, the two thing aren't comparable.

14
thatnameagain•

I don't think he's wrong. Every conservative I've spoken with about healthcare brings the argument back to personal responsibility in terms of saving for healthcare expenses, and has never fundamentally disagreed with the notion that more money should be able to buy better care.

2
DevonWeeks•

I've never heard it as "more money should be able to be 'better' care." I've heard of more money being able to by "more types" of care such as elective surgeries. But, I've never heard any of them make the case that someone with an illness should actually get "worse" care because they don't have more money. Have you heard a Republican say that you should have your arm amputated because you can't afford a more modern procedure that would save your arm? I feel that is a faulty extrapolation people have made from the arguments.

6
thatnameagain•

I've never heard it as "more money should be able to be 'better' care." I've hear of note money being able to by "more types" of care such as elective surgeries.

How do you not realize this is basically the same thing?

0
DevonWeeks•

Because they aren't the same thing.

If Kim Kardashian wants a new boob, she should have to pay out of pocket for it, and so should anyone else unless the surgery is medically necessary to treat a disease or disfigurement.

If Kim Kardashian needs an appendectomy, she should receive high quality care as should any other human being in the same condition, period.

One of these procedures is medically necessary. One is not. People should take "personal responsibility" for buying medical amenities. They should always receive quality care for medical needs. How you could consider these two things the same thing is beyond me.

By the way, just to clarify, "personal responsibility" isn't a code word for "screw you and die." When people treat it like that, they really undermine their own arguments and look immature.

2
BrawnyJava•

never fundamentally disagreed with the notion that more money should be able to buy better care.

"Should be available"? That is completely unclear. I can say more margaritas "should be available" as well, while saying nothing about how they will be procured or who will pay for them.

3
thatnameagain•

Obviously I am talking about wealthy vs. non wealthy

2
BrawnyJava•

So tax the 50% of americans who currently pay all the federal income taxes more to pay for freebies for people who are currently net tax receivers. Standard Democrat policy stuff. I guess it should have been obvious to me, but it wasn't.

3
ReddEdItOP•

and none of them have ever held this position.

Sorry, I specifically meant congressional Republican politicians, as evidenced by their actions and opposition with zero alternative presented.

NN would be affecting already implemented infrastructure whereas the ACA was trying to completely transform

The transition isn't really relevant - that's an argument against the ACA, but the point here is that the ideology between NN & full coverage for all actually parallel each other.

-3
DevonWeeks•

You're right in that idealistically speaking they kind of mirror each other. I'm just saying that a key difference is that one (NN) is an easy regulatory change while the other (ACA) is an entirely new government program. Logistically, they are different, but as you said, idealistically they are similar. I mean, NN is basically saying businesses can't do something in the future, something they aren't even doing right now. So, it's not really hard to implement. It's basically just preventing something that isn't happening from ever happening.

7
kickedguitar•

with the exception of a handful of major ISP's using throttling to bully other companies into more profitable contracts or slowing unlimited data users mobile connection speeds to because they were using to much bandwidth other then those examples, no ones doing it :)

2
BrawnyJava•

as evidenced by their actions and opposition with zero alternative presented.

That is complete bullshit. The republicans obviously have a platform and policy goals. You just don't know what they are, because MSNBC and the NYT have never covered it, and r/politics has never had a post on it. That does not mean republicans do not have policy goals.

3
lannister80•

You just don't know what they are, because MSNBC and the NYT have never covered it, and r/politics[1] has never had a post on it.

This is your chance to enlighten him!

2
ReddEdItOP•

Of course they have policy "goals". See the document below and it's entirely filled with statements like "our goal is...", "we support...", "we believe that...", but what is entirely missing is any reference to any bills that will reform the US healthcare system in the absence of the ACA.

https://www.gop.com/platform/

There's the source (which is where I prefer to get my information from). I challenge you to find in that official policy document something that specifically details what the Republicans would replace Obamacare with on the day after they get to repeal it.

Oh wait, I found their plan:

"Obamacare—was never really about healthcare, though its impact upon the nation’s health is disastrous."

...

"Congressional Republicans are commit- ted to its repeal; and a Republican President, on the first day in office, will use his legitimate waiver authority under that law to halt its progress and then will sign its repeal. Then the American people, through the free market, can advance affordable and responsible healthcare reform that meets the needs and concerns of patients and providers."

...

"We believe that taking care of one’s health is an individual responsibility."

Speaks for itself.

1
BrawnyJava•

I challenge you to find in that official policy document something that specifically details what the Republicans would replace Obamacare with on the day after they get to repeal it.

You're expecting to see a giant government program to replace it, complete with a cabinet level secretary and 25,000 federal bureaucrats to run it. You'll never find that, because most republicans think the federal government does not have the power within the constitution to do that.

Its right in your quote. Free market means purchasing insurance across state lines. Consumers get to choose what they buy and how much they spend. Bureaucrats and politicians cannot ever control costs because that's not what bureaucrats and politicians do. And they cannot mandate quality, because its not in their nature.

Only consumers can actually get better healthcare for cheaper. People pay attention when they are spending their own money. They don't give a shit when its either the government's money or an insurance company's money.

"We believe that taking care of one’s health is an individual responsibility."

Speaks for itself.

Yes it does. Individual responsibility goes hand in hand with liberty.

We understand this, and I don't find fault in the Republican's not having it spelled out for you. You don't understand this, and even me typing it out is lost on you.

1
thatnameagain•

I mean, I see what you're saying but it's not really analogous to Obamacare because Obamacare was an enormous new program that required a whole lot of actual implementation. Net Neutrality is basically just codifying the rules on data communications that companies basically already follow so there's no real change to the system involved.

6
ReddEdItOP•

Regardless of change or status quo, the underlying ideals match - fair treatment for all, regardless of ability to pay for premium service.

0
XunOnline•

Not fair treatment for the ISPs. They would have to be regulated by the government and thus not incorporate the free market that the US allows.

I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I'm against Net Neutrality now. Instead of us fighting the ISPs, we're basically asking someone to control the other guys. And that someone is the government, which, as citizens of the US, kinda brings us closer to a totalitarian form of government instead of the democracy we try to be.

Don't ask the government to regulate the companies, boycott the companies for doing stuff that warrants government regulations.

1
mm907•

How would you go about getting enough people to boycott a monopolistic company that controls a vital public utility? It'd be like trying to boycott the water company.

3
XunOnline•

Your comparison of the Internet and water is kind of invalid because we need fresh water to live, Internet, while it has grown and as a modern society, we have grown dependent on it, is nowhere near as necessary as water is.

Here are a few ways one can "boycott" monopolistic companies. First, don't buy their shit. Second, tell others not to buy their shit. We humans have two mouths, the one on our face, and the one in our back pockets or purses. Keep the first open and the second closed and you will be heard.

-2
ClockOfTheLongNow•

Net Neutrality is basically just codifying the rules on data communications that companies basically already follow so there's no real change to the system involved.

Except for litigation risk, which is a huge change.

0
DevonWeeks•

litigation risk, which is a huge change.

I normally pick up on and understand litigation risks, but I'm not seeing how NN increases risks. Unless you mean risk of being sued for not following the law, then yes, I see that side of it, but that's pretty much any law or regulation.

3
ClockOfTheLongNow•

That's exactly what I mean, and we have people who believe, absent evidence, that they're being throttled now, which means we'll see plenty of activity from the EFF and the likes who will jump on any degraded service.

It'll be an absolute mess.

1
DevonWeeks•

Ah. Gotcha. So, you think it will bring about a litany of complaints to regulatory agencies from people who conspiratorially think they are being throttled and that the agencies will bog the businesses down in unfounded legal proceedings and compliance costs? That I could see.

1
EqualOrLessThan2•

It's pretty easy to find and provide evidence. I purchased service at X speed, but I'm only getting Y speed.

1
thatnameagain•

Pretty standard for any new law. But sure.

1
buffalo_pete•

A splintered, free-market internet would be a crappy, limping, ad-infested mess for the poors

On what do you base this assertion?

That's what they offer in healthcare alternatives

They offer what the law forces them to offer. Health insurance and health care are two of the most heavily regulated industries in the country; there's very little wiggle room in terms of what you can sell and make money and not run afoul of federal and state regulators. (This has been true for my entire life; it applies to but is not limited to the ACA.)

Come to think of it, that also describes the state of the ISP market very well.

4
ReddEdItOP•

They offer what the law forces them to offer.

Legislators can make new laws.

there's very little wiggle room in terms of what you can sell and make money

The "how can me make lots of money from sick people" is primarily a US issue. And an odd one at that.

*A splintered, free-market internet would be a crappy, limping, ad-infested mess for the poors

I didn't realise this was up for serious debate. How could it not be? How is anything that poor people can afford not a shittier version of what the rich get? Right now, everyone outside of despotic regimes can access the same internet in the same way (except for fucking Hulu).

-2
buffalo_pete•

Legislators can make new laws.

They didn't. They made these ones.

The "how can me make lots of money from sick people" is primarily a US issue. And an odd one at that.

Did you know that shit costs money? Absolutely true story.

I didn't realise this was up for serious debate.

Well, it is. Now feel free to answer the question.

1
ReddEdItOP•

Legislators can make new laws.

They didn't. They made these ones

This makes zero sense. When speaking of legislators, I said the Right had no alternatives to offer, and you responded with "They offer what the law forces them to offer," to which I replied "Legislators can make new laws." Then you tell me they didn't make new laws, they made other (new?) laws. Mind-boggling.

Did you know that shit costs money? Absolutely true story.

It's not about spending money to help people, it's about profiting from illness. No surprise you missed that point completely. Fish often fail to notice water. Point being that there are other ways to keep people well other than profiting from their eventual and often encouraged sickness.

Now feel free to answer the question.

Already answered it with a question, ignored:

How is anything that poor people can afford not a shittier version of what the rich get?

But don't worry about it. I've come to realise that I accidentally stumbled into r/NeoLibertalPoliticalDiscussion by mistake. Won't happen again.

0
buffalo_pete•

I said the Right had no alternatives to offer, and you responded with "They offer what the law forces them to offer,"

I wasn't talking about the right, I was talking about health insurers. They offer what the law forces them to offer.

It's not about spending money to help people, it's about profiting from illness.

How dare someone sell food for a profit. How dare they profit from hunger. How dare someone sell houses and profit from people's need for shelter.

I accidentally stumbled into r/NeoLibertalPoliticalDiscussion by mistake. Won't happen again.

Yeah, we get that a lot from people who fall in here from the r/politics circlejerk. It surely must come as a shock that we actually discuss things and have diverse viewpoints on different topics. Don't worry, the circlejerk will welcome you back with open arms and soothing platitudes.

1
foxfact•

I disagree with you that a free market where ISPs compete with each other is necessarily a bad thing. In the United States, ISPs have local monopolies and national oligopolies, so there isn't any free market competition that can benefit consumers. However, in nations where ISPs end up competing with each other, issues like Net Neutrality aren't as significant. In these countries, if your ISP is slowing down Netflix, you can simply switch to a new one that doesn't throttle your connection.

3
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
ReddEdItOP•

My data doesn't come directly from the source straight to my ISP of choice. There are large backbone providers that have massive influence over internet traffic and I don't get to make any choice about any of them. Free markets will not do away with large backbone corporates in any way, unless you suggest breaking up existing companies and enforcing laws that keep them from reconglomerating (much like the baby bells did). Laws here or laws there, something needs to keep them from having all the power and abusing it.

1
Cpt_Steam•

Free markets will not do away with large backbone corporates in any way

You don't need to "do away" with large corporations. They are not a problem because they are big, they are a problem because you need their service and they are taking advantage of you. Competition doesn't solve things by getting rid of those in power, it does it by transferring their power to the consumer in the form of choice. Look at the places where Google Fiber has been installed and you'll see other ISPs offering better service and retaining many of their customers.

1
ReddEdItOP•

Serious question: How can I exercise choice over which backbone providers are used to deliver my data? Not sure it matters but keep in mind that I don't live in the US.

1
Cpt_Steam•

I honestly can't speak to your choices specifically, but you probably aren't in a totally free market situation anyway.

1
Waylander0719•

Did you even read the article you linked to?

A splintered, free-market internet would be a crappy, limping, ad-infested mess for the poors, while the wealthy folks at the top have access to the best of anything and everything that exists. That's what they offer in healthcare alternatives, so why should the internet be any different?

Because they are different. What you describe is not at all what net neutrality is. You are in essence making this argument:

The government the Nazi's offered was full of concentration camps and goose stepping! Why wouldn't America's government be any different?

2
ReddEdItOP•

wut.

What I described is the nightmare scenario that could exist without net neutrality.

Nazis, really? Already?

1
Waylander0719•

I escalate things quickly

1
Screwtrains1•

Totally okay with equal, non-discriminating public healthcare.

Totally not okay with equal, non-discriminating public healthcare that people who don't need it are forced to pay for.

1
lannister80•

Totally not okay with equal, non-discriminating public healthcare that people who don't need it are forced to pay for.

Everyone needs healthcare. Everyone.

2
ReddEdItOP•

How could public healthcare exist if only the sick paid for it? I'm pretty sure that's not what public healthcare is.

1
lannister80•

Everyone pays for sick people, via taxes. Eventually, everyone will get sick, and need care.

2
ThatGuyFromOhio•

"I do not like net neutrality and ham.

I do not like them Sam I Am."

Ted Cruz

0