After over 7 years on Wikipedia, the Cultural Marxism article was deleted

On it's second nomination, editors have managed to get the article on Cultural Marxism deleted and redirected to the Frankfurt School article.

Here is the Articles for Deletion nomination page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Cultural_Marxism_(2nd_nomination)

Here is the discussion where the panel of 3 ruling admins made their decision:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_deletion/Cultural_Marxism_(2nd_nomination)

Archive links just in case:

https://archive.today/RSYuL https://archive.today/ATFfj

Recent events preceeding this:

First about a month ago someone discovered that a redirect conversation had been going on at the Cultural Marxism article page. A user named RGloucester, a self-proclaimed Marxist, was leading a charge to redirect the article to one called "Frankfurt School Conspiracy theory" which claims that Cultural Marxism is just a conspiracy theory believed in by conservatives who are challenging political correctness. It argues that "cultural marxism" is just a scapegoat used by conservatives to drum up support against the left-wing. It also makes connections of proponents of this "conspiracy theory" to the Tea Party, White Nationalists, Antisemites (because most of the Frankfurt School was Jewish), and Anders Breivik (the Norwegian mass murderer). The article was redirected. After some people raised their concerns with Jimbo Wales about this, he restored the article and called for more discussion. An author/professor quoted on the Conspiracy Theory article page, Paul Gottfried, responded to what he saw as his quotes being used in a misleading way. His own quote is now absent from the current article.

Just a few days ago, the article was nominated for deletion again and this is the result.

Posted Dec 30, 2014, 1:19 AM UTC · edited

12831
[deleted]•

[deleted]

37
Stoic_Moose•

Because it's easier to delete the very thing that explains what you're doing than to try to argue that you aren't doing it. It's like a thief in the night trying to say he didn't rob your house as he makes his way out of your window with your jewelry.

12
Decabowl•

Because when you hear the words "conspiracy theory" your mind immediately thinks of some hick with a tin foil hat. That's why they do it. Since Roswell we've all come to view conspiracy theories as retarded ideas and the "theorists" as retards. So when they call what you do a conspiracy theory they are trying to evoke that image in people's minds.

9
STARVE_THE_BEAST•

As someone whose been tarred as a "conspiracy theorist" for pointing out the obvious connections between institutionally suppressed information for the past decade or so, welcome to the club.

Enjoy basking in the awesome power of our shared patriarchal white male privilege!

7
quietthomas•

Why does it seem like anything they don't agree with gets labelled a "conspiracy theory" these days?

THEY - THEM!!! THOSE WITH THE SECRET AGENDA THAT RULE THE WORLD

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
Der_ProcessOP•

The article has now been redirected to the more neutral Frankfurt School article which is concerned with a whole school of neo-marxist social theory, as opposed to the previously redirected to Frankfurt School Conspiracy Theory page.

Although people are certainly still trying to make it a conspiracy theory.

20
Camhed•

Don't worry they'll redirect it to the conspiracy theory one once the dust settles and they think it won't create as much controversy. Jimmy outright said that the initial revert from the conspiracy article back to the original was in response to the backlash he received.

8
mdoddr•

It's there now

2
v00d00_•

Late to the party here, but the redirect once again goes to the "conspiracy theory" section.

2
Der_ProcessOP•

Yeah noticed that earlier. After the first deletion it redirected to an article by that title. It now appears that both Cultural Marxism and Frankfurt School Conspiracy Theory articles were deleted and merged into the already existing Frankfurt School article, which was then hacked to pieces into somewhat resembling the Frankfurt School Conspiracy Theory article.

1
[deleted]•

I read the articles on right wing and left wing politics, the start of the left wing one is somewhat glowing with no engine of pol pot or staying, the right wing one is somewhat negative but with a mention of racists/"reactionaries". Bottom line is you will never get a neutral Wikipedia page on any politics.

16
Camhed•

You should make a post showcasing the differences. We're getting filled with a lot of GG stuff at the moment so it'd be a nice change of pace.

14
[deleted]•

[deleted]

4
STARVE_THE_BEAST•

Cultural Marxism is dead! Long live Cultural Marxism!

15
Logan_Mac•

Unconfirmed but the admin triumvirate who were to decide the outcome of the vote was "organized" (wouldn't say chosen since I'm not even sure how the admins become involved in the decision) by Rgloucester

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Samwalton9#confirmation

Rgloucester is the guy who had closed the first vote as redirect to "Frankurt School conspiracy theory" when there was no concensus, and Jimmy Wales intervened to revert it

This user self-identifies as a Marxist in his user page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:RGloucester

One admin, Black Kite, recused himself after it was pointed out to him by two editors that he had participated in the GamerGate ArbCom.

Admin Sam Walton said "I know, I roped him into it" regarding admin Huon, I don't know what does he mean but it would really be more transparent if admins were to be designated at random and not be asked by friends.

The article was created iin 2006. In 2014 it survived 2 attempts of deletion in less than two months, with the third one being this. The rationale often used for the deletion is that the vote might have been canvassed, but by whom I wonder.

14
WizardryVI•

This is the problem with Wikipedia. The only people willing to volunteer to edit and write the article on gardening will be people passionate about gardening, and their passion and enthusiasm for gardening is sure to inspire bias.

12
quietthomas•

Admins aren't asked to panels by friends.

It's whoever puts their hand up first in response to the notification of controversial deletion at the admins general notice board.

...also, as you note, if something seems fishy it's investigated (as it was with black kite), and the admin in question is replaced if necessary along the lines of WikipediaPolicy:Uninvolved.

That's why they have such policies.

1
Azothlike•

The fact that Black Kite was in position to contribute in the first place, is proof that these checks are not done as a matter of course, but instead, that recusals and removals only happen if someone notices a reason after the fact(nomination/inclusion).

The black kite issue would be equivalent to a judge being chosen to preside over his own son's case, getting into the courtroom, starting proceedings, and then someone saying heeeey wait a minute, that's your son! Judge Black Kite then shrugs and says "Oop, you got me, I'll step down."

That is not a system that regularly prevents bias. A system that prevents bias would be on that undoes prior decisions made on bias, and penalizes those involved that knowingly acted while a bias existed(in the example of courtrooms, this would be a mistrial voiding the verdict and accusations/penalties for the judge; THAT is the system that regularly prevents bias).

Furthermore, the system of "putting your hand up first" in response to the notification of controversial deletion does not prevent admins asking friends to the panel. All an admin has to do, after seeing the notice, is to contact a fellow admin and ask them to "put their hand up" for it. Obviously, the trend of bias in this has clear potential. If I believe in a specific social cause, and I feel a group admin action is relevant to my social cause, I would try to contact admins who are "on my side" to resolve the admin action (in a way I would consider) favorably.

TL;DR - Your post is bad and you should feel bad.

3
quietthomas•

Did I ever say it "regularly prevents bias"?

My post was merely correcting the claims made in the comment I was replying to. You should feel curious as to why you set out to be pugnacious towards me (especially given that you're trying to start an argument on a corrective comment that's about to turn 2 months old).

P.S I agree with you about the flaws of wikipedia, particularly their being room for gaming arbitration committees, and that topic has been brought up (and a solution offered) here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Deletion_policy#Gaming_the_3_panel_admin_selection_process_for_controversial_AfD_closures

2
Stoic_Moose•

This is why encyclopedia's have boards, and don't just change things willy nilly. Because people can hijack that shit.

13
[deleted]•

[deleted]

13
Izithel•

If Wikipedia was a thing in the 40s we'd be seeing the Nazi's doing this to any negative articles about their philosophies. Yes, I went there.

12
BagOfShenanigans•

This comment will be mentioned on ghazi. I guarantee it. They love nazi comments.

10
Izithel•

Everyone always loves to talk about how evil the Nazi's were with their genocide and warmongering.
But the fucking refusal to discuss the finer points of why they were evil is always seen as wrong somehow.

Because if they were just evil because of genocide and warmongering, there have tons of nations, organizations; both political and religious, and even individuals who've been guilty of that.

What was evil about the Nazi's was also the tragedy of it all, how ordinary people were convinced trough propaganda and censorship, group think and echo chambers that all their problems and flaws were someone else fault, another groups fault and that they were all superior or better and deserved better and more.
To convince ordinary people that these other people were both monsters who conspired and are responsible for all their misery yet somehow also less then human trash not worthy of pity.

Convincing all those ordinary, otherwise good people to help commit, cheer on or just passively allow the other heinous crimes against humanity to be committed.
That was the true evil of the Nazi's.

To do evil yourself is nothing special, everyone can lie, steal or commit murder, but to convince others that the evil you do is not just the right thing, not that even, to get others to commit those evil crimes for you convinced they are doing the right thing... that's true evil.

When I compare these identity, post-modernist driven movements to nazi's I'm not comparing them to the genocide and the war mongering.
Plenty of other historical movements and figures guilty of just that.
No, I'm comparing them to how the Nazi's convinced the ordinary people to do evil against innocents.

/rant

21
AustNerevar•

GamerGhazi Headlines: GG literally blames Nazi war crimes on the innocent German civilians.

^^^^^^shitlord

7
Der_ProcessOP•

You know who else loves nazi comments?

^^^the ^^^nazis

10
mscomies•

How do these people remain admins after openly disregarding community votes + even Wales' personal involvement? Seriously? How does wikipedia select these guys and what controls do they have if one of them goes off the deep end?

9
quietthomas•

Deletion discussions on contentious articles aren't done by majority (as that would obviously make wikipedia open to special interest groups/forums). They're decided by a panel of 3 judges (selected based on who come along first).

3
Der_ProcessOP•

Which is the stupidest system of selection possible and just as open to special interest supportive admins

5
ev1lb1t•

Deletion request was put in over christmas holidays.

Gee, I wonder which admins would be paying attention during the holidays?

4
ZimbaZumba•

Cultural Marxism in action. Priceless.

6
Suithar•

Here is a reliable source talking about cultural Marxism - http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/columnists/long-march-with-bra-burning-bill/story-fnhulhjj-1227175254745

The Wikipedia article and the description article are not even remotely related to each other.

3
BlueFreedom420•

Ironic since much of wikipedia is theory. There are scientific theories. They don't delete those Why not cultural theories? We suspected the government was wiretapping us, and were proven right. We suspect that marxists are trying to change western culture.

1
Der_ProcessOP•

It's not just a suspicion, they write about their efforts.

1