Source
r/Rowing•
iMatthew

If your feet are loose in the boat, what is supposed to make your seat slide astern during the recovery?

I rowed with a different group than normal today, with a different coach. I was in the bow seat of a bow-coxed four. The coach started us off rowing with our feet untied-in. I checked with two to make sure I had heard correctly. I had, and, being otherwise ready to row, we started. As expected, at the end of the very first stroke, I was idiotically stuck with my seat all the way back toward the bow, oar lamely perpendicular-ish to the shell as I struggled to get arms away and body over with my feet loose, and with no way to return to the catch. So on the next stroke I cheated by hooking my heels into the stretcher shoes and squirming my way back to the catch. I continued that way through the first third of practice or so, occasionally losing my loose heel-hooks and using my outside hand on the gunwale to haul myself up to the catch. It sucked. Of course I couldn't see the feet of the other three rowers but assumed that they had also found some similar way to game the drill. Finally we moved on to some other drills and sets.

Being entirely confused by the no-feet thing and pretty certain I had missed the intent of it, I asked the coach afterwards how to initiate the recovery slide and get into the catch position when your feet are loose in the boat. He said that I was supposed to "use the motion of the boat." I still didn't understand, so he said "inertia," and made some sort of horizontal planar sliding motion with his hands while explaining further that the seat simply remains in place while the boat slides underneath it, taking the rower back to the catch.

Bull. Shit. Bullshit. Indeed, at the finish my seat does stay right where it is, but only relative to the rest of the boat, not relative to the water, the land, true north, or anything else other than the boat. And there it remains, fully extended toward the bow, until I apply some kind of force — normally by pulling my feet toward my chest — to haul it, and my ass, back astern. The boat does not magically slide beneath my seat to put me back at the catch. In fact, being subject to drag and all, boats decelerate whenever they aren't being rowed, so, just as iphones tend slide forward toward the bulkhead when airplanes decelerate, so seats and rowers are forced toward the bow, not astern, as the boat decelerates during recovery. Presumably, we tie-in so we can use our hip flexors and whatnot to pull ourselves back to the catch against that force.

What am I missing? Has anyone else done such an untied-in drill? How did you cope?

Posted Jun 16, 2015, 5:01 PM UTC

322
Buckiller•

So on the next stroke I cheated by hooking my heels into the stretcher shoes

Don't think that is cheating. I always understood the drill (in the boat or on the erg) to remove the top of your feet from the equation... remove the primary force "pulling" you up to the catch. Let the minor forces dominate and since those are a bit more external or weaker, all the rowers are more in sync.

how to initiate the recovery slide and get into the catch position when your feet are loose in the boat

Clean exit of the oar from the water, strong core, gravity, quick hands away, pivot from the hips, let the momentum carry you to the catch. And yeah... heels in the heel cups.

9
[deleted]•

Well-put! It's all about your core. Use your abs to keep your body steady at the finish, instead of relying on your feet straps to hold you in as you rip into the bow. And "momentum" was the perfect word; let the relaxed hands-away motion and body-forward pivot carry you up to the catch.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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petersculls•

The tracks are not level. They are lower at the stern then the bow. You are rolling down hill a bit. On the erg if you did not have the handle in your hands when you drove the legs you would fly off at the end of the stroke if you did not have your feet in. You use the pull on the handle to stop your body mass. If you have your feet strapped the strap would help stop the body. It is better to try to stop your body by pulling on the handle.

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iMatthewOPLGRC•

Ha! Excellent. I did not realize that the tracks aren't level, but unlike the mystical "boat gliding beneath you" phenomenon, that information completely agrees with my own observation that unladen seats at dock usually roll astern and have to be pushed back toward the bow in order to make room for stepping in. It's hardly a steep enough ramp to account for foot-free travel to the catch, but of course any angle will provide some assist.

I'll take care not to somersault backward off the erg when I try it untied tomorrow morning.

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petersculls•

It helps to have good wheels and bearing. Tracks that are not pitted. The seats should move smoothly when pushed by hand and not be making a lot of noise. If the bearings are bad, tracks pitted, wheels dirty it makes if difficult to feel what is going on in the boat and I find it less enjoyable.

4
Skim74•

Yes! I rowed in a terrible masters program last summer and our boats were soo old and beat up (as in they bought 2 8s and a 4 and oars for all of them about 5 years ago for 3 grand). My calves would be crazy sore after practice because you had to drag yourself up the slide. Feet out rowing did not go well

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GlenTheBoat•

We do this drill often, I've found that it really helps with the boat moving very smoothly. It took a while of doing this drill to really get the hang of it and was extremely annoying at first but keep with it.

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FlightyTwilightyWhite Rock•

Try feet out rowing on the erg. It's the same thing. You have to use your abs to stop yourself before you get to the finish so you don't go flying off the back of the erg. It's a drill that will help you develop control at the finish.

And you shouldn't need to pull yourself back to the catch (much) with your legs, actually you let the boat run out from under you, float up to the catch gradually, and even resist a bit by pushing back by using your hamstrings, especially as you go into the very last bit of the recovery. That's how you do slow up the slide. Very minimal effort is required by the legs in recovery.

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iMatthewOPLGRC•

Will try on the erg as you suggest and aim for control. Still, the concept of the boat moving beneath me makes no sense at all. Why would it do that?

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FlightyTwilightyWhite Rock•

I think when people say "let the boat run" they are referring to the motion of the boat in the water and coming back up to the slide in such a relaxed way that when you are at a low stroke rate you can feel the motion of the boat and it feels like it is running out from under you. I have no idea if this really is an actual possible thing in physics but it is definitely a perception phenomenon I have noticed. Especially when rowing a heavier single at an especially low rating so that once you have gotten a good strong stroke in, it takes almost nothing to get the seat back up to the catch, there is definitely a subtle feel.

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kitdWalton UK•

It's definitely a perception thing. The boat is slowing during the recovery while your momentum is carrying you onward, so it is a physical impossibility for you to magically "float" forwards without you pulling on the heel cups.

1
zknarc•

Indeed. If you do a roll-up next to a fixed point you can see that boat moves forwards as the crew move up the slide.

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coloredsocks•

You were right to leave your heels in the cups otherwise you would go flying off the bow! However, the idea of the boat moving under you is a valid one because the blade of your oar is relatively stationary in comparison to the water. Thus you want your seat to be in the same relative place as the boat glides under you. If you actually moved your body up to the catch relative to the water you would be thrusting a large mass (your body) in the opposite direction to the movement because we face backwards as we row. By "staying in place" we allow the boat to glide naturally without disruption. The main thing to remember is that we aren't rowing our oars through the water, we're actually using them kind of like we would use crutches on land!

Sorry that might not make sense the crutches thing just popped into my head

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iMatthewOPLGRC•

Happy to hear from another commenter that it's OK to hang on a little with my heels! I think I get what you're saying about the movement and position of the seat relative to the water while the boat is underway. After all, the seat and the boat move in opposite directions during the recovery. Still struggling a bit with why it shouldn't take effort to get seat and rower back into the catch position. Appreciate the crutch analogy & will bring one down next time coach assigns me the gimp seat.

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kitdWalton UK•

The ONLY way of getting forward during this exercise is to use the heel cups. Laws of physics say so. It's an exercise for momentum control at the finish, and a useful one too IMHO.

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zknarc•

This. The 'let the oat move under you float to the catch' stuff is rubbish because at the finish both you and the hull move at the same speed relative to the water. What the exercise DOES teach you is keep connection with the footplate at the finish otherwise you end up like the OP, struggling or in someone's lap!

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OARneryRowerTeam Mascot•

The biggest piece of advice I can give is that the purpose of this drill is to enforce connection through the heels. To get back up to the catch you need to hold connection through the heels on the drive and then drive through the heels to change direction (as in maintain downward pressure into your heel). The heel cup on the shoe can be useful if you are learning how to do this but after you get more comfortable you will be able to stabilize by driving through the heels into the foot plate.

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iMatthewOPLGRC•

Relevant post on same topic from a year ago http://www.reddit.com/r/Rowing/comments/1k5hmh/pros_and_cons_of_feet_out_ergingrowing/?ref=share&ref_source=link

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SidViciiousGLUTES•

Move your hands quicker. You want to get your weight onto your toes asap after the finish. momentum of the handle will get you back up the slide. fast hands fast hands fast handssss

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iMatthewOPLGRC•

Thanks. Will noodle that and try it Thursday AM.

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SidViciiousGLUTES•

I was a little bit drunk when I posted that comment. I guess I should flesh it out a bit more here. Particularly because I completely disagree with the consensus that you need to use the heels to pull yourself up the slide. As a bit of context, I typically row in boats that are far far too big for me and subsequently end up rowing feet out for a vast majority of outings.

The trick, I find, is to keep the connection through the toes right through the stroke and not let yourself pull away from the foot plate at the finish (i.e. keep your weight on your toes). It does require you to lean back a lot less but you can effectively sit at back stops with all your weight pushing down through your toes. At this point, the game is to get the body rocked over as smoothly as possible so you are back in that forward body position and ready to start sliding forwards on the legs. So that requires quick hands that comes from the core to almost throw the handle away from you. The momentum that creates on the spoon swinging towards the bows is enough (for me anyway) to get my hands away as far as they can, then the body to rock over and still have enough left that the handle wants to carry on moving towards the stern and the only way I can let it, is to break the knees and float forwards.

The idea of the boat moving underneath is just a reference change. In that, if you think of the seat relative to the bank, when you stop driving your "still" at back stops but the boat keeps moving. So rather than moving towards the stern and going "backwards" your actually staying reasonably still/still travelling forwards whilst the boat carries on forwards at a faster speed. Obviously it doesn't quite work like that, but everything we know about the rowing stroke is an approximation really. And as you get better you start to learn about the next/ n+1th order approximation. Have a think about it next time your in a boat (:

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Ready_All_TypeConstantly Frozen•

This is the best answer. You shouldn't have to drag with your heels much, and a good body swing on the recovery speeds up the boat

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