Source
r/everquest•
vicex

I am actually a casual EQ player.

I am the epitome of a casual player. Like many of you I was first introduced to this game in the classic/kunark era. I was in high school at the time and was able to spend many hours playing.

Due to RL commitments these days I only play 4-5 hours per week. I will tell you what boggles my mind: those describing themselves as casual and play 2-4 hours a night.

So let's get some perspective. My highest character is a 22 SK on RF and I have enjoyed every moment of leveling. I am all about the six month time-frame and as such will likely be moving to Lockjaw.

Some of the rhetoric coming from DBG appears out of touch with players like me. However, I have no ambition to me cutting edge/BiS/seeing dragons in era. This game is a trip down memory lane and a relaxing break from a busy life.

Posted Jul 2, 2015, 5:07 PM UTC

3947
HIgh_Ho_Silver•

Right there with ya!

11
DarknessTemple•

Casual isn't necessarily about hours per week only. Where would the line of hours per week be drawn, between casual and hardcore? 15? 20? 22.45?

It is also play style, attitude, approach. I care more about a character looks than gaining 1% of stats on an item. If it looks bad, I won't wear it to get that 1%. To me, that is casual.

7
Happyberger•

I know people that do the same thing at max level with thousands of hours in mmos.

1
Polyformist•

with that being said, I agree, a casual player may be logged in 24/7, but may only trade skill for fun, or chat with guild members.

I like exploring, and with Merc's in game, and Stat's super sized on the Free To Play servers, I have been able to freely (within reason) explore a ton of stuff!

Lot's of fun, I have not been in a single group larger than 1 other person yet. (Ding lvl 51.9) !

1
Invisible-Gorilla•

Pfff. You call 4-5 hours a week casual? I'm way more casual than that. Like 4 or 5 hours a month, maybe.

L2casual, noob.

Nostalgia is a pretty interesting thing though, really. I used to push through content pretty quick back in the day but now I'm just thrilled doing stuff like running around killing rats in the lowbie zones. The experience has been like completely learning to appreciate this old game all over again in brand new ways.

7
Ariakkas10•

My LJ character is still level 2 and I haven't logged into eq since the server opened.

L2casual noob!

7
hegemonistic•

Wow, you have an account? Talk about being hardcore. I haven't even played this game. I only subscribed here awhile back to remind myself to maybe try getting into it sometime.

8
Xarilzir•

You're an inspiration to us all, sir.

2
Aanar•

Well crud, you beat my highest char on LJ - a level 6 monk.

5
jelbert6969•

Welcome to lockjaw. Look for dobbin the Druid. I spend time outside cb foraging and buffing people. While looking for a group.

4
randiesel•

It's definitely been a walk down memory lane!

I'm pretty hardcore (a few accounts, alts on each, in my 40's on them all), but that's how I was back in the day too, so the nostalgia definitely hits me in the feels as well.

I do have a question for you, as a seemingly reasonable casual player, do you expect to kill Nagafen while he's current era?

I ask because, while Holly seems pretty out of touch, suggesting that casuals shouldn't be able to kill Naggy has basically been the attitude of EQ devs for ages, so I was surprised she got so much hate.

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kattahn•

as a seemingly reasonable casual player, do you expect to kill Nagafen while he's current era?

Here is my issue with this question, and her statement: As a casual player, he is absolutely 100% capable of killing naggy/vox/CT/Inno. They are very very simple, easy fights that don't require any skill or strategy at all.

The problem with how this server works is that he is perfectly capable and skilled and geared enough to raid an kill a raid boss, but he will never actually get the opportunity to see them spawn. 100% of the difficulty of the raid is in finding the boss up.

The idea that he is skilled enough to participate, but simply will never be able to due to rarity/poopsocking required, is bad game design that leads to a toxic community.

The barrier to defeating a boss should be gear and skill, not willingness to shit in a sock.

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randiesel•

I can't disagree with your post more.

In the 6 weeks Ragefire has been open, he's level 22. He's got another 6 weeks to more than double his level, and gear to kill Naggy. It's not going to happen. It can't happen, and it would be game-breaking if it did on 4-5 hours per week.

I think it's great game design, as noted in my overly long-winded rant above. You call it toxic, I call it efficient. Each server has a top guild or two, and a hierarchy the players can move between with enough work. Can't devote 12 hours a day to raids? That's fine, you just probably don't deserve the top tier content, I know I don't.

This system is what made EQ what it is/was. With instancing of all those encounters the allure of the drama and risk of camping the big spawns is totally gone, the economy is wrecked, and there is really no point in playing.

If you trivialize all the encounters and make them easy to access, the only difference between earning your gear and just having it all gifted to you is time. There is nothing challenging or special about Nagafen_Raid_Instance_073.

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kattahn•

If you trivialize all the encounters and make them easy to access, the only difference between earning your gear and just having it all gifted to you is time. There is nothing challenging or special about Nagafen_Raid_Instance_073.

You seriously just don't understand this game and its mechanics at all.

The content is already trivialized. There is no difficulty or skill required to beat these bosses. There are no tactics, no strategy. The only difference between a kill and a not kill is weather or not you find the boss up. Right now there is nothing challenging or special about nagafen_raid_kill_073 either. Killing the boss is earning your gear. You are arguing that the only thing preventing guilds from "earning" the gear is sitting around for 12 hours.

Can't devote 12 hours a day to raids? That's fine, you just probably don't deserve the top tier content

Read that again. You are arguing that the only thing that makes players deserving is their ability to sit afk for 12 hours waiting for a mob to pop. Not playing, strategizing, gearing, progressing, or anything else. Just waiting. You are not rewarded for skill or tactics or anything other then your ability to wait. That is the only behavior that is "deserving".

I think it's great game design

You really think its great game design that the only barrier to entry to raids is sitting around doing nothing waiting for an easy boss to spawn that you can't possibly wipe on?

If thats the case, why not make an instance requiring your guild to sit afk in a room for 12 hours before you open it. You are claiming that the only barrier to being "deserving" of a kill is your ability to poopsock, so let us log in, sit in naggys lair, and when the timer hits 12 hours itll spawn him for us. By your logic, that is "deserving" of high end content.

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HellHound989•

Are the bosses trivial? Definitely, we all know this

Lets set that aside for now, as we can all agree to this...

And lets get the meat of the issue here: What is the only reason we attempt the raid bosses? The loot and prestige / status. Why do we want the loot? To be more powerful, or to sell for massive plat gain. Why do we want the prestige / status? To show other players how awesome and unique we are.

Now, what is it that makes the items so memorable and unique and powerful? The high rarity. What causes the high rarity? The limit on raid bosses only spawning once, being contested, combined with the low chance that any one of its items will drop on top of that

So, to use an example, getting something like the Cloak of Flames is a very rare thing. Having one brings about admiration and awe from your fellow players... And every player desires this!

Now, Everquest has always been about how much effort you were willing to put into it. Its actually no different than any other endeavors that we strive for in our lives. You want to be the most respected Hair Stylist in the world, where others admire you? You better then devote a huge amount of effort into it then. Want to be a master Poker Player, then you must expend a major amount of skill and effort into it.

"But games aren't life, they shouldn't be punishing or hard, I should be able to relax and have fun". Sorry, but the concept of what a game is, SHOULD be challenging and hard. "Play" and "Fun" has always been, subconsciously, evolutionary, about competing and honing your skills. Animals do it intuitively, as a broader means of learning and finessing the skills needed for adulthood. We play as children to help teach us how to interact with others, how to compete, give it our all, etc.... skills that help us into our adulthood, necessary for survival of the fittest and adaptation.

This whole concept of "Games should be relaxing, not hard work" has created our current hole in computers games nowadays. Looks what has happened now, the hand holding, the lack of challenge. Look what is popular these days: Multiplayer games, and games that provide a hard challenge. No one brags about beating call of duty single player... no... they brag about being the best CoH player, on the best CoH clan... people want the admiration, and many of us show jealousy on their status, hell its why sports are so popular... the Gods among us mere mortals effect...

Sorry for the long sidetrack there, but instancing raid zones is no different than our current trend of granting trophies to sports players for just showing up. Yah, now everyone can feel good, but its all hollow. We, as humans, are made to compete.

One of the things that makes Everquest unique and memorable was how rare high end and coveted items were. Its this desire alone that creates the whole "camp for 12 hours sitting in the zone" aspect of the game. It drives that competition that we see currently right now, to the point that players are willing to poopsock. Its what made EQ so lasting to the point that you see the flock of players even wanting to play it again.

So your right, the barrier ISN'T the raid boss itself (we can definitely all agree here), its the other players themselves, and removing that barrier may have the desired effect of making everyone feel better... just like the trophy, but its a hollow feeling...

Now everyone is running around with Cloak of Flames, the market for the item is pointless, and the game becomes pointless. Look at WoW, everyone there is special, which translates to no one being special. Great game... just not memorable after you have done a few raids when you have all your gear. You tire, you may stick around for social aspect for a bit (which that is already dying now due to the changes to making everything accessible, and no one socializes), and then you leave, only lasting memory was the people... not the game itself (other than the first 2-3 years when WoW wasn't like it is now)

I can't for the life of me recall the name of my guild, or the first time we attempted IceCrown. Hell, I cant even remember the names of the items there.

But I do remember Cloak of Flames from many years ago, and the Epics, and the very few times I got to kill Lord Naggy or Lady Vox back in 2002, and the time that I almost won the roll for my Cloak of Flames.

You remove the high rarity and uniqueness, and the competition from other players, by instancing everything, and whats left is another humdrum raid situation no different than any of the others in every other MMO.

Now everyone is special, and everyone gets a prize for being able to participate (If they kill the boss at least), and its goodness and equality around... but then whats the point of playing really?

Is it endlessly frustrating? Hell yeah, it is!, but then what part of life, even in a video game, isn't frustrating? Overcoming it, even it means we are really just overcoming the other players, and not the game, is itself a huge rewarding feeling, an achievement!

If you or I are not willing to step up and put forth the effort, then don't complain. Everyone in the game starts off equally, and you actually do have the ability, right now, to have a shot at those raid bosses... you just need to put forth the effort. Mass your fellow players, train or charm or whatever the hell I hear people do, force TL out of the content, and then regale us your story of how you did it =).

But whining about how "Its not fair!!" until someone caves into your wants only dumbs down the game, and in life, your own achievements.

Life isn't fair. But games are fair, and Everquest is fair, in that you have the same exact tools, equally, as everyone else has... but it requires effort on your part to out-compete your fellow players.

I don't want this game to had out trophies, I want to earn them.

Even if it means knowing that I, myself, know that I dont want to put forth the effort now, and expect the outcome of never getting boss items. At least when I see someone running around with a Cloak of Flames, I would definitely admire him, with jealousy.

1
randiesel•

Based on your other response, I'm not a reasonable person, so I'd rather you avoid conjecture pertaining to what my possible logic would be.

If you think the game is about loot, you misunderstand the game, and I am deeply sorry that you missed out on so much fun in EQ. Yes, loot helps beat encounters, it's an obvious sign of linear progression, and it is definitely fun to earn, but it was never the most important part of EQ.

Coming together to accomplish a goal is the linchpin of the Everquest experience. Raids, Epics, Guilds. They all require(d) teamwork, communication, social interaction. If you're making this into "I'm 50 and I can kill Nagafen, that's my right" then you and your 6box group are just another snowflake in the blizzard.

Work your way into the guild. Make your own guild of likeminded folks. Pick a different target. Wait for new content to unlock.

Those are the historical EQ options, and I believe that changing them would be a (further) giant misstep.

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HellHound989•

Everything you said is correct and I fully agree with you, but just FYI, prepare to be downvoted to oblivion for it.

1
randiesel•

I was fully prepared to lose much more than I have, but thanks!

The game is already so much easier than it was... I'd hate to see it totally lose all it's flavor.

1
ratbacon•

I agree with you on everything other than "the barrier to defeating a boss should be gear and skill".

It should be. It never is though because if it's too hard people cry about that as well, even if it is instanced. They complain that the only way they can kill it is to be in a hardcore guild and that it is too hard for people who don't have time to devote to the game.

Source: every tough raid mob being nerfed into oblivion 6 months after it is released so all the "casuals" (i.e. bad players) can kill it. In every single game I have ever raided in.

1
Lizkimber•

Casuals doesnt mean bad players. Thats a very unfair way of viewing it. They may be raid in experinced, but, bad players not necessarily.

2
ratbacon•

The problem with "casual" and "hardcore" is the definition fluctuates depending on the game.

In classic EQ hardcore is someone with the time and boredom threshold to wait out a spawn timer. Casual is someone without the time or inclination.

In other MMO's hardcore is someone with the skill level to beat a raid mob and not fuck up, and the time to meet a regular raid schedule. Casual is someone with insufficient skill level and/or time.

In my example I was clearly talking about skill level. Having raided with a lot of bad casuals who are "too busy" to learn a strat or how to play their class I can confirm there are a fuckton of them out there. And it's always someone elses fault why they fail, usually the devs.

1
vicexOP•

It's a fair question. The answer is no; I don't expect to kill Naggy in current era.

I agree with your assessment of EQ Devs. My interpretation of the backlash she received is because she spoke so frankly. Someone in her position may have done better to craft their words more carefully. However, her direct response is an indication that the EQ Devs feel strongly about it.

5
randiesel•

Glad to hear the honest answer!

I feel like "casual" in the EQ sense has warped in the last 10+ years. Back when I started EQ, just after velious' release, I was a 40 Warrior, struggling to level in my bronze armor. I knew nothing of anything, every zone was a new adventure, we didn't have reliable maps for every zone, and Allakhazam was nowhere near as nice as it is now. I was a casual.

Now people who went 0-50 in a month are the norm, 6 mage bot armies are hardcore, and everyone else is casual. I don't think Holly meant "Anyone not in TL can't kill Naggy." I think she meant, if it takes you 3 months to hit level 35, you probably aren't going to be killing dragons.

I think that's a very accurate and fair statement, and I wouldn't be back playing EQ if that ever changed.

I agree that the frankness and honestly is likely what led to the backlash, but I think it also led us all to EQ. EQ was always the most honest game I'd ever played. If you didn't know how to play your class, you were going to wipe your group and spend 2 hours doing a CR. If you couldn't put in the work to camp or time the spawns, you had to sit your ass there and do nothing for hours/days. Nothing was free.

This honestly brought a true sense of accomplishment for those willing to put in the effort. Want to kill Naggy? Well, poopsock and work up to it, and you'll see a massive 3d dragon try to kill you and your friends. It was an epic event. You had to work for it, and that's what made it great.

If we attack the devs for that attitude, we might as well stop pretending we're into EQ.

PS. There's also nothing wrong with playing casually. Most of us have a lot more going on these days compared to a decade ago.

5
kattahn•

Now people who went 0-50 in a month are the norm, 6 mage bot armies are hardcore, and everyone else is casual. I don't think Holly meant "Anyone not in TL can't kill Naggy." I think she meant, if it takes you 3 months to hit level 35, you probably aren't going to be killing dragons.

I don't think any reasonable person using any amount of logic could infer that from her post. People who are still level 35 right now and play 3 hours a week are not the people asking for instancing. People that were 50 within a week or two, that still play 6-8 hours a night and yet have no chance of getting a crack at one of the bosses are the ones asking for instancing.

The logic you're using is that she said something along the lines of "we're not going to instance for the people asking for instancing, because people who are not asking for instancing and don't care at all aren't good enough to get an attempt at the bosses"

4
randiesel•

There were, and have always been, many raids that were kept on timers to eliminate most of NA.

I remember on Povar, Lodizal was dominated by some group of russian/asian/australians and he never popped except at like 5AM est or 1PM. It sucked. I could never get that damned shield.

What did I do? I sucked it up, grabbed a case of BAWLS and a few of my guildmates, and we stayed up far later than we should've. We spent hours chasing each other, browsing alla for new items, gear upgrades, planning who was going to work on which tradeskills, and fantasizing about "Making that enchanter alt to do Jewelcraft and crack buffs."

When my guildmates needed a favor, I did the same for them. We weren't Triton (at least not yet), but we had FUN regardless of the gear. We built lasting relationships trying to help each other out. That's what EQ is about. If you want it, it's there. It's going to be a bitch, and you're going to die, but it's there if you persist.

I'll tell you what's really going to happen. Instancing will continue to expand. Content will be overly available. Good loot will flood the market as more and more people level up their mage groups. Kunark will hit and everyone will be level 60 in a day because they have a pet AOE group. The Kunark will be over within 48 hours of opening, and some of the intial people who made Mage armies will continue to farm for a week or so while it's profitable to RMT the items, and then they'll sell their accounts.

The influx of gear-laden accounts will drive more people to buy accounts or RMT more gear, which is now farmed exponentially faster with more zones meaning more named spawns, and all of Kunark will be trivialized for the majority of the people within 2 weeks to a month. People will horde items for another week or two, and then quit.

Half will sell their accounts on PlayerAuctions, et al. and the other half will cancel their subscriptions until Velious. The higher end guilds, now needing more players, will recruit more people to equip with top gear, who will then quit from boredom too.

Server will be dead by PoP, if not Velious, and we'll all blame Holly.

1
bobothetractor•

Holly Longsdale is quite out of touch with the Everquest playerbase. Granted, all of the producers have, to a degree.

While I understand how raiding can be fun, the producers never really grasped its effect on the game as a whole.

One thing that it has done is trivialized group and solo content. The above groups have since had to be tuned to be more of a challenge for raid geared players.

Another is that raiding tends to turn a fun filled game into a job, at least for some. Those who are in charge of setting up raids and getting people from point a to point b have their work cut out for them. Also, the pre instanced raid content with its lengthy respawn timers and threat of competition puts people into a position where they have to get in game and to a target at a moments notice.

Not sure if it is like this now, but back in the day, so many raid guilds recruiting procedures felt like a person was signing up for the military and a fortune 500 company at the same time.

No thanks.

Games should be fun. Games should not force us to play, we should play them when we want to, not because we have to.

3
SirBraxton•

Your version of fun is another person's nightmare. Same thing applies here.

You already stated you didn't like how raids were back then (almost like military) just to compete. That's it WAS and that's how it IS now.

You KNEW what you were to expect coming back to the SAME thing years later.

You seem rather insane because you think things would change with all these cookie-cutter watered down MMOs that have been released over the past 10years.

Welcome to Everquest chum.

-14
kattahn•

Your version of fun is another person's nightmare. Same thing applies here.

This isn't quite the case. The casual version of "fun" allows the majority of the server to at least attempt the raids. The TL version of fun is specifically to make sure the rest of the server has as little fun as possible.

If TL enjoys killing the bosses, then if the "casuals" get their way, they can still do it. The only way that instancing hurts TL is if their version of fun specifically revolves around denying the rest of the server fun. If thats the case, and I had to choose(as a developer) between which version of fun to support, I know the clear choice I would make.

8
oridjinn•

I agree with you that this is the best method and I prefer this method.

But there is a type of fun in the memory.. A nostalgia of enjoying something that sucked at the time.

Like ask people about military basic training.

Would they ever want to do it again? Probably a big fuck no. But they will probably look back on it fondly.

So all I mean is.. Many of the people, not all, arguing for contested/non instanced may just have miss remembered a little..

But with that said.. If this was staying contested... It is very possible that in 1-2 years from now. Even we who prefer instanced and fun content would look back on it nostalgically.

Anyways. I don't want to put up any defense for any point of view. I am just trying to explain.

1
kattahn•

But there is a type of fun in the memory.. A nostalgia of enjoying something that sucked at the time.

Its not that they miss remembered, its that it was a wholly different experience.

That is the single largest problem with this server: They're trying to force classic mechanics/experience onto a server where everything else is so far removed from classic, that it just doesn't translate.

Players are significantly more powerful now then they ever were, and we had GM supported rotations based on an enforced play nice policy.

It used to be that everyone on the server would get together, and the top guilds would create a raid rotation, and make a post about it and come to an agreement. And overall, your server stuck to that agreement, and if you had a guild go off the rails and try to break it, you could actually have GMs intervene.

We also had first to engage/first in force rules, so that if you work your way to the boss and pull it, the other guild had to wait for you to wipe before they got a shot. Again, this was also enforced by the GMs

The memories we have are of such a different scenario. As an example, you may be racing a guild to get to a boss while clearing trash. When you got to the boss, you had to make a decision: Is everyone at good health/mana? are buffs good? do we pull immediately or do we wait a minute to recover. what is the other guild going to do?" because if you rushed the pull and werent ready and wiped, you just handed it to the other guild. You also got to do the whole fight with the other guild offscreen watching, and you knew that if you made a mistake that it was theres to kill. It was THRILLING and added a huge rush of adrenaline to what were still somewhat boring fights.

Now you can be the first guild there, first to mobilize, first to engage, and then a bot army logs in on top of you or /pickzones over when you have the boss at 85%, and just hit their /pet attack macro and if they have more players then you, you lose.

Anyways. I don't want to put up any defense for any point of view. I am just trying to explain.

Please don't see this post as an attack, a lot of what you said made sense, but it was just flawed in its premise because the current game is so different. I agree with a lot of what you said, it just don't quite apply to the situation on this server :)

1
ikeaEmotional•

What's TL? I'm just sort of browsing and my googlefoo isn't good enough to get s two letter abbreviation.

1
trickoflight•

u/bobothetractor seems insane to u/SirBraxton. Does anyone else think that's funny? I can't stop laughing at this guy.

1
bobothetractor•

what the actual fuck did I just read?

Where in my post did It say I raid now?

I am not a raider. I gave that shit up for sanity quite early on back in the ear days of 2002 or so.

I tried to make my point that raiding in everquest is balls and should stop being given such princess royalty treatment by the devs.

-1
StumpytheOzzie•

I play around 6-10 hours per week. Most of that time is spent hunting ingredients for my baking and brewing. I accidentally got to 27 yesterday because some of the griffawns, griffins, griffons were green.

My friends have all levelled mains and first alt to 45ish and most of them are working on their tertiaries.

2
Polyformist•

(/raises hand high) Howdy everyone. My beginning was Brief beta access before LIVE.

I played EQ with a Raiding guild for gosh, up through POP at least. Roll a few year between,
I have played many MMO's in the time, but EQ is certainly the only MMO's i have returned to from back in the day. I have 50+ toons on the old Innorukk and Xegony servers. I have also returned this summer to visit memory lane! (Nostalgia)

I chose to make a fresh Dragon Born Magician, now lvl 51 in about 2 months time. Been having a blast!

I might login for an hour every other day atm, with some longer sessions on the weekends.

I joined a very casual guild on my old Xegony Server. It's been great!

1
Laragon•

I'm shocked you're not being downvoted to oblivion for being honest.

0
YouBigFaggotBaby•

Real cool story, my favorite part was when you were a sad need with no friends in high school.

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