Hochelaga... Je n’en peux plus!
quartierhochelaga.com/hochelaga-je-nen-peux-p...
quartierhochelaga.comPosted Jul 9, 2015, 12:34 PM UTC
8496
quartierhochelaga.comOr: Privileged sheltered university kids discover whats its like to live in a known, documented for MORE THAN HALF A CENTURY tough area.
43
I feel like the only reason she moved there was because it was affordable, yet failed to understand why.
To her this neighborhood was just perfect, cheap and close to downtown, what can possibly go wrong? How naive can you be? Of course there's something wrong with a cheap neighborhood near downtown.
36
Almost as bad as the idiots who complain about plane/train noises after moving near the airport or right next to the train tracks (or even both).
16
Or the morans who buy condos steps away from the bars on Mont-Royal then complain about the noise.
17
Or the morans
Not sure if intentional but funny none the less! It's moron not moran
8
I deal with people like this all the time, they move where taxes are cheaper, and then complain because the services aren't as good.
2
"I can't believe there are gay people in the gay village!!111"
1
Bien sûr, nous étions au fait des difficultés du quartier
Ils le savait et ça ne devait pas les déranger tant que ça au début, ils y ont quand même habité 8 ans.
10
Avoir des enfants, ça change beaucoup la perspective, surtout chez une femme.
7
En couple sans enfants au début, la perception du quartier et de sa dangerosité est différente aussi. Je n'irais pas élever une famille là-bas non plus, malheureusement, parce que c'est un quartier qui a de belles choses à offrir.
10
Or: You don't know shit.
Yes, Hochelaga's always been a tough neighbourhood but the problems are different now. Drugs and prostitution are much more visible than they were before. This is what happens when the city's policy is to simply push these problems out of downtown.
20
When I lived there, about 25 years ago, what the author describes was pretty much the norm. Along with drunks/junkies sleeping/living in the alleys and exposing themselves to kids. Mentally ill (usually because of too much drugs) folks screaming at anyone who'd pass by.
I grew up there. It didn't hurt me any. It tought me that the world isn't this perfect place where everyone is happy and nice all the time. You just grow more tolerant.
16
You just grow more tolerant.
This is why I left. I felt calloused. I never want to get used to seeing 16 year old heroin addicts working the corner on a Tuesday morning. I don't want to feel like it's the norm because it shouldn't be.
6
That's the hardest part. I wrote about the experience once: Was a beautiful sunny Tuesday morning and I was walking around the neighborhood. Look down an alley and there's a junkie (woman) who was squatting, had her arms around herself and was rocking back and forth. When we made eye contact she tired to proposition me.
Every bone in my body wanted to offer assistance but all she wanted was her next fix.
5
I meant that I grew more tolerant of people who were not perfect. I sympathise. I also would not want to get used to human suffering.
4
Take a walk down St-Cats in the evening. I think you'll find that it's gotten worse.
4
I don't think so. I think it's gotten more concentrated in some areas but there are little neighborhoods in the Hoch that have really turned around.
4
Possibly. Although I go there often (my friends and former neighbours don't seem to share your opinion, but they live North of Ste Cath).
I remember it was also worse in Summer.
2
And what makes you the expert?
I've lived in Hochelaga approximately 7 years ago but have been back many time since.
It's much BETTER than it was, not worse!
8
I have to agree with you. The Hoch from 20 years ago was WAY worse than it is now.
4
Uhhh...no. Hochelaga has always been like that, and has actually improved in recent decades. But "improved" doesn't mean "radically changed to become an entirely new place".
Hochelaga is known as probably the worst area in the whole region, and has been for several decades.
Part of why that area was chosen to build the olympic park was that the land was very cheap. Why was it cheap? Because it was a ghetto.
1
And the stuff she describes in the article is normal because of it? Come on.. Tricks in your windows, a knife and shit in your front lawn.. None of that is okay, even if it's Hochelaga.
4
No one is saying it's "okay". We're just saying it's always been like that and it's the main reason why the rent was dirt cheap to begin with.
So it's pretty hypocritical to move somewhere because of the ridiculously low-rent and then complain about the very reason why the rent was so low to begin with!
5
Of course, but logwatcher implies that you can't complain about it because it's Hochelaga, not only that she shouldn't be surprised.
The stuff she describes is so far out of regular, expected social convention that anyone should be surprised, even if it's Hochelaga.
3
Not if you know anything about the area. It's always been like that, in fact it was even worse 10-20 years ago.
1
The point is that Hochelaga has been well-known for this kind of thing for decades. If you don't do any research about a neighbourhood before you move into it, expect surprises.
2
The point is, even if it is well known for that type of behaviour, normalizing it does no service to anyone. The author is right to be outraged. This isn't the same thing as moving into a neighbourhood well known for it's nightlife and complaining about the noise.
The article is quite clear that they haven't been surprised, rather they are disappointed that there's been no change, that it hasn't gotten better.
2
The entire idea you're putting forward is flawed because of one simple fact: Every city has shit areas. They always have and they always will. The only thing you can do with the ~10% of the population who simply can't fit in with society, is live with them and try to help their kids, because most of the adults are too far gone to be changed or saved (depending on how you look at them).
To move to a shit neighbourhood and complain about it being shitty is moronic. Especially considering that the economy has been in the shitter for close to 8 years - being at its worst between 5 and 7 years ago. It's up to you to research where you're moving to. A neighbourhood that hasn't changed much in 30 years isn't suddenly going to change for you. If you expect that it should, you're simply delusional, and probably need an ego adjustment.
1
People expected the neighbourhood to become more civilized as it grew upscale. Sadly, it didn't happen and now those expensive shops, the ones supposed to change the area, are being attacked.
1
No one is saying it's ok, but complaining about the obvious and the established does not make things better. An article like this is essentially putting down the neighbourhood without proposing anything better, and that's useless because we already know how Hochelaga is.
2
It really depend on the immediate area you live in, like any area in Montreal or any north american cities. For sure if you go for the lowest rent, there a good chance your in "The Spot"...
2
Et ben oui, il aura fallut que ce soit les enfants qui leur retirent les bouchons de merde qu'on avaient devant les yeux pour réaliser où ils habitent.
Les toxicos et les putes j'imagine qu'il sont pas apparus out of nowhere a leur retour de la maternité.
35
C'est des gens qui veulent le beurre et l'argent du beurre. « Nous voulons habiter un 6 1/2 à dix minutes du centre-ville dans un quartier sécuritaire et propre, mais pas payer plus que $650 par mois ».
C'est plus que de la naïveté, c'est de la mauvaise foi là.
27
À l’époque, le prix des copropriétés était abordable
Ils ont acheté un condo qu'ils ont habité 8 ans. Ils vont faire un beau profit pour s'acheter une maison dans un beau coin sécuritaire comme ils le désirent. Rien de mal à ça.
Ils auraient peut-être déménagé anyway parce qu'il y a de bonne chances que leurs condo n'à pas 4 chambres à couché et qu'il est trop petit pour une famille de 5 personnes. Les toxicos sont peut-etre juste un prétexte.
6
Ils vont faire un beau profit pour s'acheter une maison dans un beau coin sécuritaire comme ils le désirent.
No, no they won't. Hochelaga has gone up more than some areas of Montreal but less than others, the places that are still cheap aren't desirable. Even Verdun is a hard buy now, much more expensive than Hochelaga.
3
quand j'ai quitté la maison il y a plus de 30 ans, le prix d'un appartement était $100 par piece dans un beau quartier pour un logement correcte. Outremont, Westmount et le neuf etait un peu plus cher, hochelaga, verdun, et le vieux mal entretenue était un peu moins cher.
Quelqwuèun qui veut ces prix la aujourd'hui, c'est completement fou.
2
J'ai le goût de te dire: ça rend ça moins problématique qu'ils s'en soient pas aperçu avant? On peut quand même pas nier que c'est pas désirable du tout pour un quartier d'avoir des crackhouses et des piqueries.
Oui, la dame aurait dû être au courant de ça mais ça change rien au fait qu'elle soulève un très bon point et est clairement en droit de se plaindre. On est pas dans un cas de NIMBY ou, contrairement à ce que certains disent plus bas, c'est rien de comparable aux voisins de l'aéroport. C'est junkie-là sont pas un mal nécessaire à la vitalité de la ville comme l'aéroport.
5
C'est junkie-là sont pas un mal nécessaire à la vitalité de la ville comme l'aéroport.
Exactement. Des junkies et des piqueries c'est pas exactement une necessité. Mêmes si elles existaient avant que le quartier prennent de la valeur, leur existence off the bat est anormal.
3
Aujourd'hui sur Fark, dans la section "Obvious":
Mother moves to low-income neighborhood and is shocked, SHOCKED to witness prostitutes, junkies and thieves all over the place.
26
Mother moves to low-income neighborhood and is shocked, SHOCKED to witness prostitutes, junkies and thieves all over the place.
because all poor people are junkies and prostitutes.
0†
La misère est souvent mère du vice. Tu as plus de chances de prendre un mauvais penchant si tu en arraches dans la vie. Par conséquent, les quartiers défavorisés ont souvent un taux de criminalité plus élevé.
17
If you've got nothing to lose... why not?
5
Certainly not but the correlation between poverty and crime is pretty damn strong.
6
No, but poor people are stuck living in places where there are junkies and prostitutes.
3
Mais la gentrification c'est mal /s
23
J'imagine qu'au rez-de-chaussée, on est aussi le premier témoin de tous les problèmes. Personnellement, peu importe le quartier, je n'aime pas les rez-de-chaussée.
21
C'est un peu le cas de tous les anciens quartiers ouvriers de Montréal - on y emménage parce que les loyers sont bas et qu'il y a du potentiel, et on s'en plaint ensuite soit parce que ça ne s'est pas assez embourgeoisé et c'est invivable, ou alors parce que l'embourgeoisement est allé trop loin et c'est invivable.
Bref, Montreal happened.
13
Drette ça! En plus, ces phénomènes sont cycliques.
Source : Les artères du Plateau qui sont plus désertées que jamais.
3
Hochelaga pourra pas être revitalisé tant que la société criminalise la prostitution et la drogue.
11
So she wants to leave for the very reason why she moved there in the first place? If it was a perfect place to live, rent wouldn't be cheap.
10
I'm reading comments that make my jaw drop. So just because it's been a more than difficult neighbourhood for a long time, people shall just bow their heads shut up and do nothing to highlight the situation or anything? I've lived in the slumps of Manila for a year (the real slumps), working there. What I read in the article was 10 times worse. Just for the sake of "yes you knew it was gonna be like that", you summon the person or anyone like her to shut up, get out and stop moaning. What a scornful indifferent snobbish blind-folded attitude. It's like you're saying "hey that's what makes the charm of this neighbourhood! Come on you're not going to STEAL OUR IDENTITY?!" And you have to be a privileged sheltered university spoiled brat not to like shit, knifes, trespassing, sex in the backyard, condoms, junkies and all? Come on, at least be a little convincing by using less gigantic stupid clichés. Better stay blind, and when the tide comes (the area is such a wreckage the prices are collapsing) everything is bought, destroyed, rebuilt and all the charming pleasant and enjoyable wildlife can't afford it, who's gonna cry?
7
I'm reading comments that make my jaw drop. So just because it's been a more than difficult neighbourhood for a long time, people shall just bow their heads shut up and do nothing to highlight the situation or anything?
Yes. These areas exist. They always have and always will. If you don't want to live in a shit area, research the area you plan to live in before moving to it.
It's like sleeping with a stranger who has herpes, not using a condom, then blaming them for having herpes.
1†
You're unreasonably angry about this, and doing just as much "exaggerations" as the people you're talking about.
1
He's right, though. And he's calling out the self-righteous pricks who feel superior because they commune with the dregs.
1
Je vis dans Mercier (la partie plus aisée d'Hochelaga si on veut...) depuis 1997, donc presque 20 ans, et j'ai remarqué que la gentrification à amené une hausse des problèmes.
Bien sûr il y a les problèmes mineurs comme le fait que les espaces de stationnements sont de plus en plus rare (en partie à cause du fait que maudit, les gens savent plus comment se stationner en prenant UNE SEULE place) ou le fait qu'on retrouve de plus en plus de déchets dans les rues. Mais il y aussi des problèmes plus graves, comme une augmentation du nombre de vols, une augmentation du vandalisme, du nombre de personnes adultes avec des problèmes mentaux (du genre, des personnes qui gueulent toutes seules à 2h de l'après-midi), une augmentation du nombre de sans-abri même, chose que je ne voyais jamais à l'est de Pie-IX avant.
Dans un sens, je blâme tout ça sur la gentrification, autant celle de HoMa que celle de Mercier. Celle de HoMa pousse les personnes plus pauvres vers l'est, encore plus loin du centre-ville. Ces personnes arrivent donc dans Mercier. Il y aussi la gentrification de Mercier qui est à l'origine des problèmes; des jeunes professionnels s'installent dans des condos neufs, mais ils sont jeunes, ont de l'argent et souvent ils arrivent de la banlieue donc ils se croient tout permis. De plus en plus, on assiste à des bagarres, des chicanes, des partys qui finissent le lendemain midi en semaine...
Les vols et le vandalisme sont en hausse aussi; parfois on sort de chez nous pour retrouver toutes les vitres en morceaux, tout les miroirs de voitures au sol, tout les toits renfoncés... Parfois ce sont des plates-bande qui sont détruites, des bornes fontaine ouvertes... L'été passé, on a lancé des oeufs sur ma voiture et sur celle de mon voisin on a déversé sa poubelle.
Quant aux vols... on m'a volé 2 vélos dans ma cours, un voisin s'est fait volé sa moto dans sa cour fermée à clé, un autre s'est fait prendre son gros bac roulant pour le recyclage. On a volé des plantes dans notre parterre (avant de partir avec un pot en ciment un moment donné...), on a retrouvé une voiture volée et abandonnée dans notre entrée de garage un jour.
Mercier, c'est supposé être plus calme qu'HoMa, mais criss, les problèmes d'HoMa débordent dans les quartiers avoisinnants. Je sais que ça '' s'améliore '' là-bas, sauf que pour un problème de réglé, un autre apparait aussitôt. C'est un cercle vicieux et ça commence à s'étendre. Tout ça en grande partie à cause de la gentrification qui pousse les moins nantis à s'éloigner et donc à '' dégrader '' les coins plus tranquilles et à cause des nouveaux venus qui souvent manquent cruellement de civisme et se permettent de faire tout et n'importe quoi en nous répondant qu'en ville, on doit tolérer.
Je m'excuse, mais la tolérance urbaine n'excuse pas le fait que tu t'engueules dans la ruelle avec tes chums jusqu'à 4-5h le matin, ça excuse pas le fait qu'une fois par été tout les vélos se retrouvent chez Comptant.com et surtout, ça n'explique pas pourquoi les problèmes qu'on est supposément en train de régler sont en fait en train de contaminer les secteurs autours.
Ça fait presque 20 ans que je vis ici et jamais mes grand-parents puis mes parents ne se seraient installés ici s'ils avaient su qu'un jour on verrait une pute ou un clochard devant notre porte.
Mercier n'est plus '' la première banlieue dans l'est '' depuis qu'elle est devenue une annexe d'HoMa.
6
Juste par curiosité, tu habites dans quelle partie de Mercier? Pourrais-tu me dire quels sont les secteurs troubles du quartier (Mercier-Ouest et Est)? Je compte déménager près des métros Langelier/Radisson/Honoré-Beaugrand et la rue Sherbrooke; trouves-tu que ces environs sont corrects?
3
Je suis dans Mercier-Ouest, entre Sherbrooke et Hochelaga pres du metro Cadillac. C'est plus tranquille qu'HoMa et Mercier-Est, mais c'est beaucoup moins calme que ca l'etait. Les prox sont raisonnables par-contre, parce que les logements sont grands et bien entretenus.
A la station Langelier, y a beaucoup de blocs, donc c'est moins cher mais pas necessairement propre ou tranquille. A Radisson y a beaucoup de bungalows mais les auelques appartements sont recents, et c'est le coin le plus tranquille du quartier. Honoré-Beaugrand c'est de l'autre cote de l'autoroute, dans Tétraultville; c'est comme a Langelier mais avec des batiments plus vieux.
Entre Cadillac et Radisson, c'est assez recommandable quand meme, a condition de bien magasiner. A Langelier si tu veux un petit loyer, tu vas etre dans un bloc de 20-25 logements en rangee; le blvd Langelier en est plein entre Marseille et Hochelaga. Tu peux aussi aller en haut de Sherbrooke, ce qu'on appelle le Nouveau-Rosemont. C'est un coin de personnes agees, mais il y a une ecole secondaire de 1500+ eleves. Ca depend si ca te derangerais ou pas.
Le secteur au grand complet est tres frequentable le jour, les debordements arrivent la nuit vers les 1-3h et c'est quand meme pas a tous les jours. J'en ai mis beaucoup dans mon autre reponse, mais c'est des evenements qui se deroulés sur quelques annees depuis le debut de la gentrification. Tu vas mieux dormir ici qu'a HoMa; c'est comparable a Rosemont en fait comme atmosphere.
2
l'enfer c'est Hochelaga
3
Un peu hors sujet: je savais que Hochelaga est un quartier louche mais est-que quelqu'un pourrait me dire s'il en va de même pour Mercier, juste un peu plus à l'est? Je compte acheter une maison près des stations Langelier/Radisson/Honoré-Beaugrand et je voudrais savoir si ce quartier est aussi minable que Hochelaga.
3
Il ne faut pas généraliser un quartier. J'habite Hochelaga au nord d'ontario et cela n'a rien à voir avec le sud d'ontario. Pas de junkies ni de prostitué. Coin bien tranquille. J'ai aussi habité pres de la station Honoré-Beaugrand (st donas et de Teck), c'est vraiment tranquille.
4
J'ai visité une demi-douzaine de maison. C'était 350-400k pour des maisons que j'aurais stripper l'intérieur au complet pour rénover.
2
Il y en a au moins une que j'ai trouvée correct. Je suis plus intéressé à savoir si la partie qui se trouve juste au sud de la rue Sherbrooke tout près des métros est au moins vivable. D'ailleurs, connais-tu des sites à part re/max où ils vendent des maisons?
1
Toutes les maisons à vendre par agent sont sur Realtor.ca
Si elles n'y sont pas, c'est qu'elle se trouve sur Duproprio.com
Avec ces deux sites là, tu couvres pas mal 99% du marché. (Mon oncle a vendu sa maison à Ville Mont Royal il y a environ 7 ans en plaçant une annonce dans le journal!)
2
vivable... come on guys... c'est pas non plus une zone en guerre...
1
centris.ca
1
[deleted]
1
[deleted]
2
Attend un peu, ils vont bientôt proclamer qu'ils veulent avoir le droit d'«élever» des poules dans leur cour.
2
Les poules effraient les junkies, c'est bien connu!
4
[deleted]
2
J'habite hochelaga et j'adore mon quartier mais je dit souvent a ma blonde que c'est pas une place pour élever un enfant et que si on décide d'en avoir un on déménage .
1
Stop complaining and move
-7
didja read the fucking article
7
Didn't read the end .....glad to see she's leaving. Probably a good time to buy though, as eventually gentrification will happen and prices will go up big time.
1
I spend a lot of time there. Its a pathetic place. Ontario street is cleaning up a bit with cutesy bars and shops, but the skid row stretch on Moreau reminds me how much people can suck (no pun intended).
To make matter worse, the area is filled with uneducated and unhealthy Quebecois, meaning they've been here for generations. These people have had 60+ years of the best social programs in North America to get their shit together, and sadly haven't.
-10
Yeah, some of these people are fucked up. Calling them pathetic is a bit harsh though. It's obviously a place where people go when things aren't going particularly well, due to the cheap rents. And those people raise children who often end up the same way, because they learn from their parents. Social programs are great, but a lot of people don't think to use them because on some level their lifestyle works. There's a lot of mental illness out there too, and those people often are affected by the stigma and shame that comes along with that.
Your argument is a little too close to the classic CBC comment that appears on any story related to First Nations topics, basically that they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps, get jobs, and all that bullshit. These people generally don't appreciate how shitty the history of that community is. White people literally stole and raped their children, among other things. Yet some people still seem to think that this has no long lasting effects. That someone (and several different cultures) can just forget their fucked-up history and suddenly adapt a healthy lifestyle.
A lot of these people need help and aren't asking for it. They're life works in a way and they feel joy sometimes, that's all some people need and more importantly that's all they know. I doubt there is much hope to reach the fucked-up adults, so I think the best situation is to try to reach the children and teach them good habits while in school. After-school sports programs and community garden spots (unfortunately, there are far too few) are just a couple ways to do that.
10
I used "pathetic" in the same way injured animals are pathetic. It's not meant to be an insult. I realize I'm looking at this like a rational person, and it is hard to put myself in their shoes. However, just because someone isn't hungry doesn't mean they don't need to eat.
-1
These people have had 60+ years of the best social programs in North America to get their shit together, and sadly haven't.
The level of ignorance and shelterdness is this comment is so fucking high.
What are these social programs you're talking about? And how do they affect cyclical generations of poverty and abuse?
5
CEGEP - Allows for essentially free higher education.
DEP training - Essentially free trade school.
CPE - Extremely affordable daycare, allows parents to work / get job training.
CLSC - Free psychological services. They also offer free birth control and addiction assistance
OMHM - Social housing, rented way below market rate, often with social and community services within the housing projects.
There's also this entire fucking directory of services:
http://www.arrondissement.com/mercier_hochelaga_maisonneuve-list-directory/t1/
There are also several services at the provincial/federal level, namely universal health care. There are thousands of people who strive to alleviate the suffering of the less fortunate. These systems and organizations help end the cycle of poverty/addiction/violence/abuse on a daily basis. I volunteer for one and have seen first hand how hard their employees work (for peanuts) to help the less fortunate.
Are you saying that these organizations don't work? If so, please do them a favour and tell them yourself.
8
I'm not saying they "don't work" at large, but to list CEGEP as a "social program to help the most vulnerable portion of our society" is pretty ridiculous to begin with.
Do these programs help? Sure, I'm all for sticking together.
But are they the magical remedy to generations of poverty and abuse? No.
Can you look at the clientele who's caught in a spiral of poverty, illiteracy, drug abuse, violence etc and say : well we gave you CEGEPS, DEP and Daycares ... what the fuck are you lazy ass doing?
I know my fair share of people who had all the privileges in the world and still managed to fuck up their life royally.
Hell, just when I look at all the privileges and opportunities that I was afforded... I kind of feel bad as to where in life I'm at right now.
6
It all comes down to the fact that you can't help those who don't want to help themselves. To me, Québec (and Canada because a lot of programs are federal too) is one of the best place in the world to live if you're poor and uneducated and want to pull yourself out of it.
The truth is, welfare/BS people don't want to work. They want to sit on their fat lazy asses all day and collect money from the government and sell drugs on the side. Pop out babies every year cuz you get a bigger check the more kids you have.
I'm all for social programs, but I wish we'd enforce more rules against blatant abuse.
0†
To make matter worse, the area is filled with uneducated and unhealthy Quebecois, meaning they've been here for generations.
Oh, ok.
1
This means its full of people that understand out society, have been exposed to it their entire lives, speak the local language, have had access to education and healthcare their entire lives. It isn't an immigrant ghetto, where the residents have had none of these privileges.
1
Interessant qu'un site faisant la promotion du quartier publie tout de même cette réaction. Bravo pour la transparence!