r/TrueDoTA2•
Twity

Pub Support Players

Hey, I play a lot of support in the solo que, and am currently sitting at 4524 solo MMR. (I go by Hootyhoot if you want to check dotabuff).

I wanted to talk about factors that effect pub supporting, that don't factor in as heavily in pro games. The main thing I see is raging cores, but there is a bit more I take into consideration. Happy cores play better and smarter.

Happy cores are less likely to rage, and in my experience one the best ways to make a core happy is to give them a lot of mana. KotL gets a lot of attention in pro games bc he can pull anyone across the map, but in pubs he has another big advantage, mana spam. CM isnt as good for this bc the mana is passive, but in general I think it makes the cores happy to spam and still have mana. Healing is another good way to keep your cores happy, but I do not think the effect is as powerful as the mana.

My other favorite effect to keep cores happy is bailout moves. Shallow Grave is the king of this, but treants armor does wonders to make people happy. This can be a double edged sword, an angry core might get pissy if they think you missed a grave. Venge seems good for this but in my experience she requires a bit more team coordination to be as effective as she is in pro games. People also often want to use the swap for init.

The other main jobs of support that factor heavily into pro supporting don't work so well to keep cores happy. Pushing is very powerful, but is seen as a given with a strong push hero. Disables are taken for granted, and if they ever don't land cores might rage. This isnt to say that they are not important, they just dont factor in on the same level in pubs as they do in pro games.

Another factor to keep your cores happy is dominating a lane. A hero like skywrath can zone even a dual lane. A strong lane presence can make up for a core with subpar laning stages too.

Lastly, I like supports that punish over committal. WD is the king of this, but a lot of powerful ults work the same. People will often forget about weave and over commit while sitting on -20 armor.

Anywho, that just my opinion, interested what my fellow support players have to say.

Posted Jul 14, 2015, 12:52 AM UTC

2234
walterlewout•

You can take advantage of raging carries on the enemy team by playing an aggro dual Offlane. Once you get a kill or two, someone on the enemy team usually says to report them for feeding. This boosts your team's moral so your safe laners typically play better. I've used this to get really high win rates on heroes like undying and veno.

9
that1ocelot•

I'd have to agree, I usually play support or offlane and even heroes that can contribute to kills like Lion while still giving the kills to your core make people happy.

Some people are just impossible to make happy though, so making space is always a good route to go

6
thadpole•

I play a lot of omniknight and io in pubs, and being competent with my positioning, item builds, keeping wards on the map makes people happy, and for whatever reason those heroes really help my focus.

If my mid player dies to either rotations or even solo, I buy him a tp because I understand the item progression is important. I'm 4.5k as well, and sometimes mmr discrepancy is quite high wherein my 5k player is versus a 6k, so losses in the mid lane have to be expected.

I always play for consistency, just making sure I don't miss my spells or don't make mistakes. Counting mana is important.

Also being a support player, you have to often be impactful in other means, so I ask questions frequently to keep people aware of things like item progression and "are we defending this tower or not?" And try to manage macro decisions like split pushing and team fighting.

Buying smokes is a great way to get people to group as well. Many games I see heroes like tide get early blinks and then ravage not used until the enemy pushes 5 minutes later when we could have put it on cooldown twice already for picks.

Basically to make people happy you have to win, and being the sacrificial lamb that dumps funds into the sentries and smokes is necessary in order to play Dota like a team, and teamwork makes the dream work.

5
Ukgamer66•

If your even or ahead I've found warding up the enemy side of the map often gives your cores the confidence to roam together and pick up free kills - no matter if there is a language barrier.

Of course there is the risk of moving into the wrong side of the map, solo, to do it so these days I wait for an invisible rune.

I'm pretty sure just seeing where the enemy isn't has won games for my team without anyone really knowing it. There's such a benefit to be able to know when they are ganking or in Rosh just because the lanes and jungle are clear.

4
cday969•

Warding on the other team's side is great. If you can control those 2 big ward spots on Dire side the Radiant will have no issues coordinating good pushes and ganks.

1
Karatekuh•

I agree with you. I sit at around 3k at the moment and I have a hard time getting up at the moment. For example the last ranked match i played nyx support and kept our sinking ship floating but with the "Carrys" I had there was no way to win it. So I tend to think playing greedy supports who have huge impact is probably still a viable option you know. A warlock with Agha refresher or something can turn Shit around sometimes. But I don't really know at the moment. With the teammates I get at the moment I don't see Myself ever gaining some mmr again :/

2
PeenoyDotoCore: Experienced, Support: Highly Experienced•

It's the reason I mainly play WD, either mid or support. He can wreck fights with a cask > maledict > combo, and keeps cores safe and topped up on health/mana with arcs + healing. Not to mention if I am a support, zoning the offlaner will be pretty easy as WD has pretty high base damage (55 iirc), and you can get kills pretty easily with your lane partner.

3
sedsnewoldg•

I think WD is possibly the best "pub support" hero.

He hits relatively hard early for zoning. His goofy as stun + early damage can sometimes chase 2 heroes out of lane temporarily without any other help or followup depending on lane comp.

He has a fight turning ult with a relatively low cooldown and mana cost that make it okay to use during pickoffs and even as defense against dives.

He has an "oh shit we overextended" spell that can help you live in laning phase and late game alike. At worst, it helps sustain pushes / top off creeps when pushing.

He has a "fuck that hero in particular" spell when you land it.

His stun is somewhat unreliable and can be anything from a tickle and waste to virtually locking down 2 out of position heroes. Nonetheless, used in coordination with your heal it can get you out of dodge in the laning phase. Its long range can also be used to setup enough of a stun for your lane partner/mid/whatever to land their spells / stuns. The range and relatively low mana cost and CD make it great for interrupting channeling and TPs at all phase of the game.

Finally, he doesnt NEED anything to be good. Mana boots, and an urn when you can if no other carrier (tanky and further heal, and hes usually near kills if played well). You can ward bitch non stop and have huge impact with just mana boots.

Greaves/mek, aghs, etc. are gravy and great if you can get them...but WD can do a LOT with his base kit.

I usually go to lane with 2 sets of tangoes and 2 clarities, after buying 2 wards (1 to offlaner) and the courier. You can give tangoes to mid easily. You can be obnoxious with this setup. Be it harassing / zoning, pulling through (the extra tangoes!), etc.

If the other team doesnt respect him early, sometimes weird stuff happens and he can snowball. Rarely, but so funny when it happens.

I'm rambling, but damn I just love playing this hero if I have to support haha.

4
PeenoyDotoCore: Experienced, Support: Highly Experienced•

Haha, I know exactly what you mean. I am a WD picker, have ~200 games with him and I love his entire kit. He has a fight turning ult, kinda like disruptor but a lot more damaging if you get to channel full duration + you have aghs. Possibly the only hard support capable of getting rampages with general ease, as even cm channelling ult has to be in the middle of the fight to deal damage, while Death Ward has a pretty long cast range, and will bounce (and hurt) like a motherfucker.

I usually don't get greaves, only if I'm the relegated mek carrier, which I usually aren't. I tend to go arcs -> urn (if noone else is getting) -> glimmer -> aghs -> bkb -> shivas/hex/dagon(only if i'm pubstomping).

3
Dat_Speed•

The only item WD needs is aghs. The 4x bounce and HP/MP is incredibly powerful and trumps any other item. I love this hero too and have been picking him like crazy. I'm starting to notice people are picking him a lot more. I've had especially good luck with WD+stunner offlane. Dual offlane is so underrated right now...

1
sedsnewoldg•

I tend to shy away from glimmer cape even if position 3-4 weirdness happens...but most seem to prefer prioritizing it more.

How do you use it on him? To set up ganks? Just to channel ult and self cast? for carry bail outs? I'm sure that I'm failing to use it to its full potential...it just seems like 2k wasted for me whenever I pick it up though.

1
Karatekuh•

Yeah I can see that wd is a good pick but I don't know man. I love playing nyx or mirana as support but it's just not working out :/

Even Chen who has such a big impact early on is not enough advantage to help my cores get online in time. I don't know but ranked is slowly dying for me

2
PeenoyDotoCore: Experienced, Support: Highly Experienced•

I don't really like nyx as a support, since most offlaners will be able to trade with him pretty easily. I'd much rather pick a bh or ogre, and roam with it. Mirana's still pretty good, but you have to be able to secure kills to get anywhere, so you'll have to roam a bit too, since after the first couple kills, the offlaner'll start playing a lot safer.

3
Karatekuh•

Well I think nyx is pretty good because of the utility he offers. You can mana burn, Stun twice and you can also stealth around. With blink and Agha he is so strong IMO. But yeah there are definitely other heroes you can pick :)

1
UNBR34K4BL3•

You have to have a high impact in every game. Doesn't matter the role.

2
Karatekuh•

Yeah I agree on that. But waht I meant is that when you have a hero with abilities like chaotic offering for example you can sometime turn fights around. With a mirana for example you can not turn it around in this fashion if you know what I mean. I can set up kills good. And I bring utility with my ult but I have no reliable team fight ult you know?

2
stylelimited•

Mirana can bring a fuckton of impact, but she's not as reliable as someone like Lion, Dazzle, or, indeed, Warlock. Well-timed Mirana ultis are extremely difficult to combat and a 5 sec arrow is nothing to scoff at (nor the ability to escape with leap)

2
Karatekuh•

Yeah that's basically what I also meant

1
UNBR34K4BL3•

i guess my point is that if you feel you aren't having an impact with a hero, you should pick a different hero. "low impact supports" are a myth that bad supports tell themselves to protect their self esteem.

1
Karatekuh•

It's not even the case that I don't have impact. It's just that it's not enough impact sometimes. I mean when I played that nyx game my mid fed 12 kills in 9 minutes. How impactfull should I be to out weight that?

3
CNHphotoCore: Learning, Support: Experienced•

Definitely agree.

1
_thunder_•

that is a big gamble becausa, like you said, it can work both ways. they might think you missed a skill and they died because of that. personally, i think the most important thing is to talk as much as you can with your core, the whole team really. if they ask for wards, ask them where do they want them

1
vraGG_Core: Highly Experienced, Support: Highly Experienced•

Agreed.

But from my experience, it's more of "not making them angry".

Just do no fuckups and you should be ok. No single pulls, no failed graves, zone enemy offlaner and never miss a spell. Also keep the vision up 24/7 and make sure you upgrade chick exactly at 3:00.

1
jaccarmacCore: Learning, Support: Learning•

I've been experimenting with different levels of greediness on Oracle in 2.5k recently. I feel like he's uber broken if you can get a decently timed Euls. No one can deal with W spam in lane, and once you hit 6 your carry can farm anywhere as long as you're behind him. Euls give you huge damage potential and lets you stay on the map to protect your team and get your next few items.

1
wildtarget13Core: Experienced, Support: Experienced•

Sir action slacks did have a point when he said solo queue is based on securing a winnable late game.

When people draft 4 cores who all have stupidly greedy item choices and have their own agenda, it's impossible to make sure they don't lose barracks and still have the jungle and ancients to safely farm.

Repelling and shallow graving them is one option. Killing the enemy is the other. Setting up kills is unfortunately the better way to secure games this patch. It may not be always in the laning phase. But it's doable eventually.

Many heroes I have as comfortable choices right now are supports that have a lot of offensive and defensive capabilities. Winter wyvern, Chen, and witch doctor.

But all of these heroes also have easy ways to jungle decently fast or clear camps. from there it's much easier to afford detection, obs, and smokes to secure a decent mid game.

As strong as a repelled and blood listed hero is, force staff, urn and medallion timings help too. Being repelled isn't as good as an aegis for example.

Some players/cores take advantage of the repel better than others. It's a dice roll honestly.

1
backstrokerjc•

I mostly play support in very low mmr (~2k, haven't calibrated yet but that's probably where I'm at) and therefore usually wind up solo supporting. Players at this level don't usually have effective supports on their team, so even doing simple things like warding, stacking the jungle, and helping harass in lane can make a huge difference in the game.

1
SerpentineLogic•

It works both ways - as a position 3, I often buy a ward to keep them on cool down, then drop them from my stash for the support to pick up. People forget that supports don't need a lot of gold but sometimes might not be able to afford to keep up with buying consumables.

2