Oath Keepers in Ferguson: 'The police have become tyrannical' – video
theguardian.com/us-news/video/2015/aug/12/oat...
theguardian.comPosted Aug 12, 2015, 8:56 PM UTC
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theguardian.comNot denying that many people on both sides of the fence in ferguson see these guys as an unwanted influence, but I think a lot of people are miss-reading their intentions.
From what I have read in the past they are more in the direction of 'sovereign citizens', but less extreme. I would have thought they would be as much of a threat (if not more so) to the police rather than the protesters. This video would appear to back that interpretation.
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They show up to patrol and call Obama a mulatto.
Yeah, they're going to help.
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It's an uncouth term, but accurate. He is half black, half white.
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More accurate than "American"
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Keep fucking that chicken, Abner.
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Not sure if I missed something but at what point do they feel it's necessary to fire a weapon?
They say they're defending all protesters against police so if a cop harms or shoots someone and they felt it was unnecessary, they would shoot the cop? And then if the cops shot back, the group would return fire?
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shrugs The de facto standard for use of deadly force is in defense of self or another from the threat of imminent bodily harm or death.
Presumably, they'd use force to deter protestors from being hurt or killed by overzealous police.
I mean, hey, if I were there and armed, and I saw a cop beating someone for no reason other than protesting, or using other force against someone for nothing other than protesting, I might be inclined to defend that person.
Cops are not above the law, they are civilians. That they abuse the populace and use force without justification is well documented, and deserves to have SOMEONE take notice and stand up to it. People keep calling for shit to change and to have the police be reigned in. If the government does nothing to do it, if the local community does nothing to do it, and if the police themselves continue to egregiously abuse the populace, then what's left? Shut up and take it?
At least these guys have the balls to go out there and put their money where their mouth is, rather than sitting at home bitching about police on the internet and then doing jack shit when the police continue to cause harm.
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It doesn't matter how well these guys are armed - there are only a few of them and if any of them raised up on the cops I am pretty sure they would be wiped out pretty quickly (along with anyone else who happened to be in the way).
Police don't respond well to people raising up on them.
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well, maybe more people should stand up to them, so their bullying bullshit stops. Maybe people need to stop being intimidated and mocking anyone who shows a goddamn backbone.
The only way the police change is if the people make it so goddamn hard to hide their bad shit and make an effort to stand up to them and call them on their shit, forcing them to be accountable.
Shouting down a group, however wrong you think they are, that at least bothered to show up and say "we're here to protect the protestors" and actually have the willingness to do that is just supporting the cops' ability to bully protestors and control the narrative, painting anyone questioning them as dangerous or deranged.
Look at Baltimore: There was a very real, specific crime committed. And the news, plus the cops, did everything they could to at once demonize the protestors and shove the cops' bad behavior under the rug.
At least these guys are willing to act for what they believe. That i can respect, even if I think that they're not picking a battle they can win.
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Look at Baltimore: There was a very real, specific crime committed. And the news, plus the cops, did everything they could to at once demonize the protestors and shove the cops' bad behavior under the rug.
Because the "bad behavior" didn't exist.
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Are they picking a battle or is it all talk? Have they ever fired a shot?
Note: Firing a shot in this situation would not end well for anybody.
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Not supporting either side here. However police constantly operate in a state of out gunning and out manning their opposition. That said whenever they come anywhere close to equal force they perform poorly. Look at how they acted in Boston to the bombers or in LA to dorner. That's against one or two people. What happens when it's 12 or 24... what about 100?
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Then you get the national guard and martial law. Police are taught a simple rule: you never fight fair. You do not engage someone that is as equally armed / equipped as you. If they're unarmed, you're armed. If they're armed, you don't engage until back-up arrives. There is more than one? You disengage and wait for swat.
Cops don't fight fair. Nor should they. If you are "fighting fair" with someone that's a risk to your life, then you're brain-dead.
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It doesn't matter how well these guys are armed - there are only a few of them and if any of them raised up on the cops I am pretty sure they would be wiped out pretty quickly (along with anyone else who happened to be in the way).
Good riddance.
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It's the protestors who are the problem. They're not protesting just acting like animals and looting anything that is not bolted down
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I hope this ends up like that scene in Heat or the shootout in True Detective s2
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The police HAVE become tyrannical. And we do need a group of people willing / brave enough to stand up to it. While I am wary of supporting anti-government militias, I am glad SOMEBODY is doing it.
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Part of me wants to say we should back off and let these idiots police the area for a few weeks.
Realistically though that's just going to get more people killed.
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Really? Seems to me that other than protestors firing on cops and cops returning fire, no one's gotten killed. And since these guys have been in ferguson both times the people protested, and not a single one of them committed any crime or caused harm to anyone, as opposed to the police who had more than a couple of questionable uses of force and/or deaths during the incidents, they're doing a bit better at it than the cops are.
Also, remember that the cops are just civilians with fancy badges and cars. There's nothing special about cops, or their training that makes them somehow special or more qualified.
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They're not tasked with maintaining the law. I haven't gotten shot at either. Because I'm not tasked with keeping order during a riot.
Do you honestly believe just turning a racially charged city over to an armed citizen militia would end well?
Actually... Don't answer that, this is reddit, of course that's what everyone thinks. The police are always wrong, and random people with guns are always right.
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No, I don't think it would end well, because they're guys who are, by all accounts, trying to prevent people from getting killed, not out there trying to take up the nuanced task of total law and order.
But considering that the Cops in both cases of Ferguson riots antagonized and were quick to bring violence to the protestors, whether or not they caused anything bad to happen, I'm less inclined to believe that having people on the protestor's side that can use force if necessary is more than just a bit more extreme than I'd be inclined to go myself than "you know, i hope they continue be just dorks hanging out there with guns looking like Tacticool dorks; and I hope the cops think twice about brutalizing anyone under the guise of crowd control."
And no, the Cops are not always bad. The protestors aren't always right. But neither side gets unlimited trust, especially with the track record. And in this country, I'm not willing to give cops a blank pass any more than i'm willing to give any yahoo with a sign or a "ZOMG I"M A VICTIM" story a free pass.
Ideally, the Ferguson cops would have been disbanded, a federally-appointed task force would have taken over until the mess had been sorted out, and the individuals who had done wrong had been tried in a court of law.
Ideally, in this country, the police would receive as much if not more scrutiny than the citizenry.
Ideally, in this country, the color of a man's skin wouldn't determine his value or carry the prejudice of criminality and/or privilege.
But, this ain't an ideal country, and sometimes it takes more than words and signs to make change happen.
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I don't disagree with your intent, but realistically what outcomes are there?
If they disagree with their interpretation of what's going on if the police move to suppress the riot, what are they going to do? Fire on them? Demand them to stop and be arrested right along with the rest? What's the goal there?
If you want accountability, get me the same number of guys with camera drones monitoring the area. A few dozen flying points of public accountability. That would do far more good than these guys can, and not put people at risk.
Edit: Also, sorry for the snooty "this is reddit" response. Police loathing on this site is excessive and frustrating, but I didn't need to direct that at you.
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My friend was posting Oath Keeper crap on facebook. So much that I had to hide his feed because it was getting more and more insane. Just a bunch of armed guys looking for an excuse to get away with murder.
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the police don't want us increasing tension, so they are the tyrants.
Certainly not the people that showed up with rifles trying to enforce what they interpret as 'the constitution'.
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And yet, there has yet to be a single case where these guys have used force against anyone, caused any harm to anyone, or caused any crime.
The only people that have openly decried them specifically are the cops. Think about that. The police, that are being protested for brutality and illegal actions, are the ones openly nervous because there're people there that have guns and are willing to shoot back. And, hey, they're white, so people might actually get pissed if the cops shot or beat or otherwise harmed them, and that puts a huge damper on their ability to steamroll the protestors.
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Biggest outbreak of racial tension and unrest in a decade? Quick, send in self-righteous armed white people! That will fix everything.
If these guys want to help they'll fucking leave. Unless someone has specifically asked you to show up and protect their property, then you stay on their property, otherwise get the fuck out.
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What a great twist. My first assumption was that another KKK-ass separatist militia group was here to police black people for their own good.
BAM - dude shouts down a counter protester about black lives mattering.
They may be raising the danger level out there, they may be dangerously close to vigilantism, but I can't look down on their motives.
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Look who I found whilst milling around.
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You mean their motive to look like a big shot and pretend they're important or matter?
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You're acting like a child over this so obviously they matter to you.
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They are walking around with guns. That alone qualifies as important and it does matter. They're much better at it than the police too.
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Well then obviously you can trust the middle aged guys from a different city who have nothing better to do than dress up and show off their machine guns
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What about these guys?
http://i.imgur.com/bGRyR5t.jpg
I'm sure the Oath Keepers would be thrilled if local residents picked up arms and marched with them.
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Last time out, there were citizens in Ferguson who were also out with the Oath Keepers and were armed.
Also, no difference between these guys going in and a bunch of folks from the National Guard (who train two weekends a month, two weeks a year!) and are given actual machine guns and other ordnance not available to the Oath Keepers.
And as of yet, they haven't caused a single death or case of injury.
You want to laugh because they decided to go out there and do something. Great. At least those guys have the balls to actually go out and do something about the things they believe in, instead of sitting around on reddit making snarky comments and shitting on people that believe things they don't like. ;)
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I am sure their spouses would be thrilled if they stayed at home... Or maybe not haha
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If I remember the oath keepers were there to protect some businesses from looting in the past.
I thought they were "Purity Ball Dad" types who had some march on Washington a few years back, but now I'm seeing a bunch of guys with guns. So confused.
I think you are thinking of creepy ass Promise Keepers.