The Woes of Weyland - Part III: Subpar Scoring
anrnz.com/2016/01/the-woes-of-weyland-part-ii...
anrnz.comPosted Jan 21, 2016, 12:10 AM UTC
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anrnz.comInteresting read. I really like your solutions as they don't just solve problems but also make weak cards better.
Personally I've always felt weyland and the game in general might need a bad pub expansion that makes it a more useful mechanic. Other corps can ignore or clear it but I'd love to see weyland be the one Corp that could just not give a damn thanks to more cards like ireress which can technically void the bad pub afvantage(if yog wasn't a thing). It could give them an avenue to explore that they already kind of have without going against their flavor and there's a ton of design space there.
Hell you could even give them a 3/2 if it did something like give bad pub on scoring.
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Someone suggested that Vulcan Coverup should have (or at the very least, could have) been a 3/2. With how completely unnecessary its "bad publicity when stolen" clause is (given it's only worth a single point when you score it), I'm inclined to agree.
Also, the area of 'bad publicity as advantage' is one I touch on in the next article. I think it's a mechanic that needs to be approached hesitantly (it is intended as a downside, after all), but like with tags for Runners, there should be some Corp strategies that actually reward you (even if in non-standard ways) for accruing BP.
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I always got the feeling Weyland's answer to the likes of Caprice, Ash and San San was meant to be Off the Grid, and on the face of it, it should work - it's as expensive, but only as much as San San, and Weyland is known for being rich (even though that's less and less the case), and instead of the possible "run again"s of Caprice and Ash it just straight up stops the runner running against it, no ifs, no buts - very straightforward, very Weyland.
Of course this means the runner isn't bankrupting themselves trying and failing to get into the server again and again, and securing HQ was almost never quite as successful as you'd hoped - Crisium Grid makes it potentially playable, but it was almost never enough.
Personally I think it should have had a trash cost, that had to be paid on a HQ access to do the trashing instead of making it automatic. Even a low cost, like 2, would probably have done it some good.
Definitely a card that fits the faction and it's ethos down to the ground, but crippled in execution.
As for traps, there I agree with you (though I'd say shattered remains is an honorary Weyland card)
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The biggest issue with OTG has always been the zero trash cost. It already trashes itself from play automatically on HQ access, there was no reason to make it totally crap by throwing a zero down there. If it was 5 rez/4 trash or something, it'd be a whole different story.
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I also always imagined that Off the Grid was meant as Weyland's equivalent protection upgrade. It's just that the numbers are so far off. I mean, from a flavour perspective, it's also way cooler than the likes of Ash.
Sadly, like many cards from the Spin Cycle, its brilliant theming is undone by how awful its numbers are. See: the overwhelming majority of Spin's doubles, Hemorrhage, Hard at Work, Blackguard (ugggh), Garrote, Alpha, Omega, Snoop, Swarm, Strongbox. The list is huge. It's tragic how many of those cards just wish they were 1, 2 or even 3 (or in Blackguard's case, 5 or more) credits less expensive. I really do wish Garrote had actually been Criminal's mega-killer - at a whopping 7 to play and 2MU, it should have been 3 strength; either that or drop it down to 1MU and lower its install cost to 6 (at most). Sigh.
But hey, as Damon would say: "You have some astute observations and there is no point in denying real issues. I'd rather acknowledge, learn, fix, and move on."
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Off The Grid is in a weird spot. I think it might be over-costed. One of the problems is that it relies on securing more than one server. Ash and Caprice are nice because they force the Runner to run through the same ICE twice. Off The Grid forces the Runner to run through two different sets of ICE. This means that you now have to pay to install and rez twice the number of ICE to get the same effect as those other two cards. Plus it gets trashed for 0 if the Runner sees it before its on the table, which they very well may since now HQ is siphoning off some of the ICE you may have rather used to protect R&D.
It's a quadruple whammy since it requires more ICE, requires that ICE to be on a server you don't necessarily want it on (HQ), costs a ton to rez, and doesn't tax the Runner even 1 credit if they see it before it hits the table.
If Weyland maybe got some Upgrade tutor to go along with their Asset tutor then that might mitigate the loss-from-R&D effect, but then they can just include 1-ofs of the defensive upgrades from the other factions for better effect. That might not actually be a bad thing, and maybe that's just what Weyland needs?
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Great piece.
Once again, I feel like Weyland and Crim are both in the place where FFG feels like they have specific things they are meant to do, which are separate from the super-useful things that other factions do, and that those things (for Weyland, money and meat damage; for Crim, money and bypass) are so potentially powerful that any one solid card could wreck the game, so instead they are focusing on the aspects and abilities nobody wants or cares about (for Weyland, advanceable ICE, for Crim, expose effects.)
Your solutions here are solid.I think, in both cases, the answer is, "let them do what they're built to do, but make them work for it." Argus should have been able to become a formidable ID to play against, instead of the poor man's PE that it ended up as. And if Weyland needs to be as unsubtle as it can be (and I don't hate that flavor decision, in actuality) then it needs harsher gear-check ICE with more devastating choices for the Runner to make when encountering them.
Me, I like a concept that FFG hasn't explored yet in the design space, of ICE with individual subroutines that require different types of breakers to deal with. None of them "end the run," necessarily, but harmful if you hit them without a full rig out.
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Part III has materialized!
We're discussing Weyland's scoring this week, which means agendas, protection upgrades, ambushes, and fast advance tools are all fair game.
You may have correctly identified that, aside from agendas, Weyland doesn't really have any of the other items mentioned. More on that in the article!
As always - enjoy!
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Great article again! Interesting designs too.
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Thank you - this is one of those areas where Weyland is really lacking. And once again, thanks for the shout-out in your last podcast!
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I feel like GRNDL Refinery is an "ambush" for Weyland - it's the kind of card that boosts the Corp rather than burning the Runner, but it still does the other thing you want out of an ambush: it masquerades as an Agenda, forcing the Runner to push through your scoring server to go get it.
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I see what you're saying - it's something of a win-win pseudo-ambush in that it baits a run that will earn the Runner no points, but if the Runner ignores it, well, you're rich.
Personally though, I'd far prefer something more akin to Shock/News Team that doesn't require the same setup/baiting; alternatively, if I'm actually trying to seriously lure in a hapless Runner, I'd want to go 'full mind-games' and actually give the W a legitimate advanceable ambush. That's perhaps just me though.
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I agree.
What I'd really like for Weyland is something like an ID that gives them 2 credits whenever the runner jacks out, and to support it with more threatening ICE. The current meta is that Runners can basically brute-force their way in anywhere. Weyland can remain unsubtle and make that hurt a lot more without going against their flavor.
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(Which is to say, ideally, Weyland should be able to use cheap, early ICE to discourage the Runner from hitting them while they crank out their not-FA-agendas, instead of needing to put a ton of awkward time and effort into building themselves up while the Runner finds their myriad ways to make that build-up irrelevant.)
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Is there somewhere a guy can go to get a poster of CECIL ARTUREZ? Either edition...
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Sadly, Cecil's quite the elusive gentleman. From what I gather though, him and Hackerman share some distinct visual similarities: http://www.kungfury.actor/2015/04/leopold-nilsson-as-hacker-man.html
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[deleted]
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Also, I have quite liked Hollywood Renovation as paired with Casting Call, but that's generally only useful in Argus, which again isn't as good an ID as it should be, and Casting Call is 2 INF, which eats up a lot, so perhaps it's still a pipe-dream combo.
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It's worth mentioning that Hollywood Renovation can actually be really, really good. Let's say you have an econonmic advantage early game (because you're Weyland) and the runner's "don't kill me" package isn't online yet.
You install and start advancing hollywood. The runner knows if they steal it they will die, probably, and they're willing to give up 3 points to get enough board state to run over all your bad ice in the mid game when they have money.
But then, starting your turn with 4 advancements, you install, advance hollywood, advance hollywood, and suddenly score an Atlas.
Wishful thinking that you can get it to that many advancements safely? Maybe, but it is a play available to weyland for fast advance that can really force the runner's hand!
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Hollywood Renovation's 'best case scenario' is indeed pretty excellent. Sadly, it's extremely rare that said scenario ever arises outside of very casual Netrunner. Which is fine, but it ain't gonna solve Weyland's issues at a higher level of competition.
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I whole-heartedly agree. In my local group, there was a member who wanted advance-able ice to work.
She ran public agendas with Simone Diego, so free advances all around, best case. Worst case (usual case) was she'd install the upgrade in her server (protected by advanced space ice) and we'd run it (before it was free to rez) and throw the nice things away.
Such a nice theory that unfortunately stinks when put to use. It's sad because Weyland will always be my favorite corp, but NBN does me justice.
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Avenard would make Titan the NEH of Weyland!
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Definitely would be a pretty significant buff to Titan. That said, there can only be one NEH...
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Nice Hackers reference
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I must confess that if I did make a 'Hackers' reference, I wasn't aware of it. Hackerman, however...
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Now that I've made a few comments elsewhere in this thread that led me to this point, I'll coalesce my ideas and say them outright:
If Weyland can't have any Fast Advance options, fine. Let's make them the best option for Rush.
As we know by now FA ≠ Rush. FA rewuires scoring out of hand, which Weyland can't do and Damon says they won't be able to do. I'm cool with this. It's like Green not having fliers in MtG. It makes sense.
But they should be able to have more cheap, nasty anti-face-check ICE, anti-AI ICE, on-encounter ICE, etc. If their worthwhile agendas are always going to take two turns to score, give them protection for them. Make Hollywood Renovation a power-card. Give Weyland early pressure. Is that installed card a Government Takeover? I better give up resources and take meat-damage to check! Nope! Corporate Town, damn!.
This is where advanceable ICE should have gone to begin with - something cheap and punishing to lay down, which the Corp can spend clicks and credits making stronger as need-be, with punitive counterstrikes and scorched earths there to underline the threat.
Just my 2¢.
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Green not having flyers
But Bird of Paradise, tho...
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I feel like weyland's design space for defending his servers is not upgrades, but assets and cards that make the runner run other servers. Stuff like corporate town, off the grid, expo guide or public support. While things like executives or ronin exist, no other faction has as many assets that actively hurt the runner. And yes, ignoring an eve campaign (or even a Jackson Howard) is suicide, but it's only going to benefit the corp, it isn't going to hurt the runner.
The problem of course is that many of these cards are either pretty terrible, like dedicated response team, or too specific, like corporate town. And also the problem of defending multiple servers, specially since support like worlds plaza also sucks. But the idea is still there.
I think that an asset that did things like "Select one of the runner's installed cards when this card is rezzed. It's text box is blank except during runs on this server. You may not rez this card during a run. You may derez this card if the chosen card is destroyed" or "You may advance this card only while it is rezzed. As an additional cost to access a card in a server, the Runner must pay X, where X is the number of advancement counters on this card" could be an interesting way to strengthen weyland's game.
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Interesting idea, but the horizontal plan is neutered fairly substantially by Weyland's penchant for bad publicity, which I would argue is much of a Weyland 'thing' than assets. I personally think that assets aren't really Weyland's design space at all, so much as it is just one of the things they do (specifically one of their IDs, Gagarin), like every other Corp. The four Corps all have roughly the same number of assets - Haas-Bioroid and Jinteki have 18 each, NBN has 19 - with Weyland just behind at 17.
That being said, The Universe of Tomorrow introduced several asset-oriented support cards, so it might be a more recent archetype being pushed by the designers.
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The design space isn't assets, but assets that put the runner in a worse spot. Most assets like the campaigns or howard benefit the corp, but Weyland is the corp with the most assets that punish the runner directly if ignored.
Also, stuff like elizabeth mills, contract killer and dedicated response team may be easier to trash with bad pub, but it's effect is just as powerful as it is without bad pub. And also Weyland doesn't always go with bad pub. Gagarin is the best example of a Weyland ID that loathes it.
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I really. REALLY. Like Avenard Grid. I like that on it's own it's click-compression for advancable ICE so it buffs them. I like that it has to combo with other cards to FA, so it's not as easy to trigger as Biotic or SanSan. I like that it interacts interestingly with existing, underused cards like Shipment from Kaguya, Firmware Updates, and the criminally underused GRNDL Refinery. Love it.
Can't say I like Cecil, though. He can essentially lock down a server for a full turn. Not even Ash and Caprice can do that.
Overall, I think the conclusion that the Agendas are not the problem is the correct one, and the lack of literally any of the tools a Corp must rely on to score agendas out of a remote is the issue. A taxing remote, by its self, will not allow you to score out Agendas on its own. Netrunner is a game built on bluffing, and to exempt one Corp from having those tools puts it at a huge, inherent disadvantage.
Thank you - Avenard Grid required a lot of back-and-forth about the exact mechanics but I'm very happy with how it ended up (the numbers themselves are of course still somewhat up in the air). The fact that it required underutilized cards to fully unlock its potential was something I was particularly pleased with.
I hear you on Cecil, but the reality is, he'd only really be brutal in the late game where multiply iced servers can become absurdly taxing. In the early to mid game, his stopping potential is actually pretty poor, as his boosting is inefficient when there is only one or two ice protecting the server.
Furthermore, he's one-shot use and requires spending money upfront to stop the Runner - Caprice (and particularly Ash) can be rezzed after the Runner has already spent a substantial chunk of cash on the server. But you are correct that, if you pay a sufficiently large amount, and the Runner doesn't have tricky bypassing/derezzing/trashing tools at their disposal, the Runner is locked out of the server that turn.
But I actually did think ahead past the current meta, when I came up with the card, particular noting Mumbad's upcoming The Price of Freedom and Populist Rally - card links may be found here and here, respectively. Wouldn't it just wreck the Corp's day after they just threw all that cash away, only to not be able to score the agenda next turn? There's also the much-discussed Councilman, who could simply prevent the Corp from using Cecil in the first place.
Again, I recognize that Cecil's upside is huge, but the counters to such an ability are already on the way.
Finally, agreed entirely on the last point. Even if Weyland is supposed to be "not tricky" (Lukas pls), severely hampering the faction's bluffing game reduces Weyland's ability to actually play Netrunner.
Cecil is not a complete lockdown though and that is what I like about it, things like grappling hook, sunny breakers, surfer for barriers, and morning star are the perfect counters, and of those only morning star is rotating any time soon. I would like to see both cards printed, it would add some zest to a faction thats main purpose in recent memory is making butchershop spend influence.