Source
r/poker•
vethlock

Weird rule at Ocean's 11 Casino

Discussion

So I played a hand at 5/5 NL where an elderly recreational player raised UTG, I called UTG+1, and 3 more players called including 1 in the small blind. SB checks, UTG bets the flop, I raise, 2 players fold. Before the player in the small blind acted the old guy UTG says "I'm all in" and I point out that the SB still hasn't acted. We call the floor over to see whether his verbal action was binding even though he acted out of turn, and to my surprise the floor manager and his boss both say no. UTG is free to change his action after SB acts even though he verbally announced his action out of turn. So of course even though nothing changes when the SB folds, the old guy decides to call flop, and then he bet/folds turn when I shove cause he thinks I raised the flop with a gutshot and got there on the turn. Now, I don't think that this guy was angle shooting or anything, he seemed like a typical oblivious live fish that doesn't even understand all the rules of the game. The problem is that A. I would have gotten his entire stack if action out of turn was binding and B. even if this guy wasn't angle shooting/colluding this particular hand, it seems like this rule could be heavily abused by anyone who knows how to.

Has anyone else been to a card room that has this rule? Does anyone know if its possible to get a poker room to change their rules? Maybe via petition or if there is some sort of gaming regulation that requires casinos to be consistent in their rules when it comes to things like this?

If "any action made out of turn is NOT binding" is an official rule then I am genuinely worried about the integrity of the game. This is the largest card room south of Orange County and they frequently run mid-high stakes games where someone could easily make/steal thousands of dollars just by abusing this rule against unsuspecting players. This is a rule that accomplishes absolutely nothing besides increasing the possibility of angle shooting and collusion.

Posted Mar 8, 2016, 7:25 AM UTC

121
TwoWeekCritic•

he seemed like a typical oblivious live fish that doesn't even understand all the rules of the game

Gee whiz, and the casino wouldn't let you use the rules to fuck him out of his entire stack?

I am genuinely worried about the integrity of the game.

Yeah, me too.

11
twoambien•

not really 'fucking him' when he announced all-in.

OP sounds like this guy figured out you were really strong given how hard you argued for that all-in to stand. next time play it cool and he probably still goes all-in.

2
vethlockOP•

I didn't argue for the all in to stand at all. The dealer simply called the floor over and they told us the rule and that was it. It wasn't until after the hand that I mentioned my dislike for that rule

1
TwoWeekCritic•

I point out that the SB still hasn't acted. We call the floor over

If no one had said anything, the SB would have folded and the all-in would of stood, but hey, you are all concerned about the integrity of the game, right?

6
vethlockOP•

Bit of a mistake there. I did point out that the SB hadn't acted, but it was the dealer that called the floor over.

1
fryisadogLA irreg•

Tldr but if it's a bad ruling at o11 must be from Ken

3
Evref•

It's a bad ruling that most reputable rooms wouldn't make.

3
wayneomac•

Most places I play the action goes back to the player whose action it was suppose to be on. If that action has no affect on play (in this case a fold) then the guys verbal would be binding. This is normally how I see this played out in almost every card room I've played in.

3
sausalitoturkeyface•

yes, this is how i've seen this played out too. therefore, i'd expect the shove to be enforced.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
crockfs•

On one hand: As long as everyone at the table is aware that his actions are not binding, then what difference does it make?

I mean I have no idea whether the person to my left is going to go all in anyways. So it really shouldn't change anything.

On the other hand: It screws with people in font of that person who haven't acted and might suspect they'll get thrown in a squeeze play, thus might get otherwise callers to fold. (Bullshit) It could become a nasty strategy. Or then he get;s to only call after declaring an all in, I don't like that.

I think we would all agree that proper poker etiquette would be to just keep your mouth shut and act in turn. In my poker room I would have made him go all in.

1
chiubakka•

my understanding is that if a player raises out of turn, the player that was supposed to act can do one of three things: check, in which case the out of turn player's raise stands, call/raise, in which case the player acting out of turn can take his action back, or fold. Idk what happens when the player folds cuz that's never happened to me before lol

1
ShowMeYourBunny•

Typically I see the rule as "any action out of turn is binding so long as the action doesn't change."

So if seat 1 raises, seat 3 announces 'all in', the 'all in' is binding assuming that seat 2 calls or folds, if seat 2 raises or shoves it's no longer binding because the action has changed.

The rule in the OP seems to make some sense as well, though. It just leaves it a little more open for angle shooting. Dealers need to be on top of people with the warnings given that rule.

1
randomdewd99•

at a casino i play at, this rule changes depending on who the floor staff is..

But imo you shouldn't have made such a big deal out of a totally minor mistake (i hate players who call the floor for such trivial shit) and i bet your body language and frustration that his all in should stand, gave off a tell that a blind man would pick up... And he realised his all in was going to get snapped

0
vethlockOP•

Again, I hardly said a word during the entire hand. I simply pointed out that the SB hasn't acted, then the dealer called the floor over and they told us the rule. The floor leaves and the hand continued on as normal. Only after the hand was over did I mention that I think this is an objectively bad rule that could easily be exploited by angle shooters

1
sausalitoturkeyface•

honestly, you should just exploit the rule until the change it. its awful, but so is the rule.

1
Friggin_Bobandy•

Fold pre ainec

0
generic_007•

Stop whining. Standard ruling when playing with ploppies. It wasn't judged deliberate, which you seem to agree with. Play a better line if you want more value in this case.

Known angle shooters won't get the benefit of the doubt. If this was a Tournament, it'd be binding.

-2†
vethlockOP•

The problem is that this wasn't judged on a case by case basis. "Any action made or announced out of turn IS NOT binding" is an official rule, and because of that even someone who is a known angle shooter could theoretically abuse this rule and not face any consequences.

-1
mic_giu•

The "official" rule is this you can only change an action declared out of turn if there is positive action in front of you. If this was a tournament they probably would have enforced it.

Like others have said, they probably just didn't wanna punish some casual for an innocent mistake and would've put the hammer down if they though he was angle shooting.

2
sausalitoturkeyface•

why is this ruling punishing UTG?

1
vethlockOP•

They did mention that they only enforce action out of turn in tournaments. I don't understand why they do it in tournaments but not cash games. I'm all for keeping recreational players happy but it just seems inconsistent to have rules that you sometimes do enforce and sometimes don't. I've also never heard of this rule being official in other card rooms, but I haven't been to that many so I wasn't sure if it was the norm or not.

0