The cliche of 'staying clean'

This honestly just sounds like some elaborate writing to justify you not being able to get clean

A binge drinking frat boy who date rapes his way through college is more acceptable to society than a junkie

Sorry, I stopped reading here. If you want to be taken seriously, don't venture into ridiculous hyperbole and stereotypes. Nobody condones or accepts date rape, and the fact that you act like there is just this horde of frraternity men out there who are just date raping woman after woman just shows how ignorant you are. Don't expect others to be tolerant and learn about you when you are so eager to generalize those around you.

At the end of the day, you're a junkie, you're not a Christian in Ancient Rome, or a Sodomite in the Dark Ages. You're not being persecuted for your decision to put dope in your veins

I dont know any people that died from alcohol overdoses (it does happen though) there is pressure to stay completely sober cause most cant stay sober off their doc smoking weed or drinking.

Relapse is only as shameful as you make it. Shame does kill. But relapse needs to be treated with the seriousness of the resurgence of cancer.

I cant even use fingers to count the number of ppl i know who died on shot one of their relapse.

Dont do 12 step stuff if u dont want. But the lifestyle associated with heroin is nothing like alcohol.

In a perfect world we would go shootup safe govt heroin in a Supervised Site but the reality is we give our money to a chain of dealers that is gang and cartel controlled. Our money goes to killers. Maybe not true for this forum but the average heroin addicts has to commit crime for their heroin.

12 step stuff is wrong in a lot of ways but its ths only thing i have consistently seen people who had nowhere to turn and no hope transform into helpful members of society.

"DAE hate alcohol, opiates are so much better for you, society holds rapists above junk users"

You're basically preaching to the choir here on some things that have been covered ad nauseum, and some of its bullshit anyway... first of all, it is not moore accepted to rape people than it is to do dope.. second, kerouac was a speed freak too. Also no one really pretends that alcohol is fine and dandy compared to junk, it's just a cultural thing that goes back centuries in many many cultures around the world. Maybe in Saudi Arabia they hold opiate users above drinkers, considering alcohol goes against islam (and they do produce poppies I think). But whatever, that's not the point. Just sayin, imo this is kind of circle-jerky

Your general point about stigma is right on, but your reasoning, approach to the argument and examples are just terrible.

The whole scree against 12 step recovery seems pretty misguided. I've never seen a 12 step group go out and actively shame users or alcoholics. And if you are not interested in abstaining from your DOC, why go to meetings and buy into what they have to say? I know some people are court ordered, but that's a legal system issue not a 12 step issue. I wouldn't go to chess club meetings if I didn't want to learn how to play chess.

The world is pretty fucked my man

If all drugs were legal then alot of issues with addiction, such as the money/scoring aspect would be solved and people would get on with their lives as functional addicts. BUT it needs to stay illegal to fill jails etc.

One thing to point out: Shame kills. If loved ones would stop being told that they're "enabling", and instead had the understanding that sometimes a motherfucker needs relief, they're would be less junkies dying alone in a closet. We need to end this fucking 12 step mindset and start pushing harm reduction. I'm in my 50s. Using for over 30 years.

I second that it's not more acceptable to rape people than it is to shoot dope, and also that this just sounds like semi-scholarly writing to justify continuing to get high for the rest of your life.

Yes people relapse, some after a week, some after years. That doesn't make them bad people, addiction is just a bitch. Alcohol may be legal, but it's still not really acceptable to most people to have a raging alcoholic loved one. People want the best for those they care about, and our loved ones watch us systematically destroy ourselves with dope. Social drinking is more accepted than social dope shooting because the latter rarely exists.

Relapsing is not an excuse to just give up and accept you have to use for the rest of your life to be happy. That is, unless you want it to be an excuse, which it sounds like you do.

Wow. This is so well written and absolutely spot on. Thanks so very much for sharing. I'm definitely saving this for future perusal.

Yep, it's like the myth of sexual "purity" that puts stigma on people (mainly females) who engage in lots of sex. Words like "clean" and "dirty" conjure images of unrealistic perfection and worthless filth. It's an all-or-nothing ideology that needs to stop. There are many paths to recovery, not all of which require total sobriety from all substances.

Personally, I consider someone to be "clean" if their daily lives are not consumed with scoring/using drugs and they function like a healthy person. That can include those who use no drugs as well as people on methadone, Suboxone or other alternatives.

Stop hating bro , drunks are just as fucked up as we are .. as are clean people , we're all just humans trying to do the best we can spread the love :P

Why this have to be so complicated.

You want to use, then use. If you don't use, you don't. Who gives a fuck?

I agree 100% with the points your trying to make here. While I can see how some of the readers here took away from it the wrong points (saying that you sound juvenile, self loathing... saying you're making excuses to not get clean... projecting inability to do whatever) I believe they picked up on that mainly due to thee fact it was written by someone who, like myself, has become quite cynical and jaded towards a world that VERY FUCKING MUCH has a huge double standard depending on which substance is being abused.

I have said for years that the legalization of [all] drugs would greatly reduce not only the harm we cause ourselves due to not having safe and clean tools, environment, and general atmosphere in which to use... but also all the crime and violence associated with drugs. So many countless lives lost due to cartels killing out of paranoia, lives lost on both sides of the war on drugs, lives lost when a deal goes bad or too much money is owed and can't be paid, lives lost because the product hasn't been put through health and safety standards the way alcohol, tobacco, and prescription drugs have been (for example all the fent deaths that continue to grow)

Countless other benefits to throwing the negative stigma surrounding illicit drug use out the window, but I'm not going to lie.. I'm rather tired, nodding a little, and can't possibly name them all at this present moment.

One last thing I'll add is, just imagine, take ALL the crime, violence, tax dollars flushed down the drain, and health and safety issues of the users alone not to mention anyone else even remotely involved with the 'industry'.... imagine ALL of that just poof gone. The few things remaining would be a little theft here and there by the junkie down on their luck and needs the cash, accidental and intentional OD (which would likely at least go down in numbers...not vanish but definitely reduce dramatically), and crimes committed while someone is high (maybe not particularly opiates, but for example a tweeker that's been up too long does some crazy shit like attack somebody or something) BUT, these (as far as I'm concerned) minor issues already exist and would also, as stated, likely go down somewhat. So why would any true public servant NOT want to get rid of all the other horrible issues surrounding the criminalization or all the substances?? I mean, hell, the 3 minor issues I listed already occur with alcohol and it's legal... so why not let people do what they're going to do anyway safely, cheaper, and without over populating our prisons and our morgues?

Rambling is over now lol I need to lay down for work tomorrow but I definitely agree with OP and believe a huge change needs to occur so that we can heal alot of broken people in this country. And if not heal them , at least keep them semi safe.

Night folks

Definitely an interesting point of view. You have a lot of respectable points to your arguments. Gonna save this text on my phone for future use, if that's cool of course.

the projectile vomiting withdrawal scene you know will happen in every junkie film

That actually happens quite rarely on screen. Withdrawal scenes are almost never realistic. They usually depict the person pale and sweaty - that's pretty much the extent. Then they get up and they're fine. Post withdrawal leaves me weak and ill for an extended period. If it was three days and then you're back to normal, it wouldn't be so very hard to quit.

And how is this a "cliche" in a movie? Withdrawal is reality, not an overused saying or situation.

Man. So well said. Seriously. We are no less than any other people who have "legal" vices.

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Cus the date raping frat boy will inevitably end up in some position of power more than likely. Apparently it's just "boys being boys". I 10000% agree w this sentiment tho

A binge drinking frat boy who date rapes his way through college is more acceptable to society than a junkie.

what? where? as a former "binge drinking frat boy" that had many "binge drinking frat boy" friends, date rape was considered one of the worst things you could do to a woman(or another man, we didn't really care who you fucked). If anyone in any fraternity at my school found out that one of their brothers had date-raped or rape-raped or anything of the like a girl(or again, guy) they would first off get their ass beat to all hell, second off be reported if not already, and third be blackballed by the fraternity and everyone in Greek life. That shits no joke.

The funny thing is, it's been proven that even at schools with massive Greek populations, the general population/sports teams are far more likely(and by likely, I mean they actually commit the crime of) to date rape and rape in general than fraternities. Actually, i'd say in 90% of fraternities at 90% of schools, treating women with respect(unless in the bedroom she likes to be called daddys dirty little whore) is a big part of being in a fraternity. The whole "fraternities spike girls drinks" thing is A. mostly comes from one fraternity, PIKE, B. Rare as fuck.

And when it does happen, its blown up like crazy, because fraternities are getting less popular with school admins and crazy ultra-liberals and feminists that don't really know what fraternities(and sororities) are about, and think that we only binge drink/throw parties, try to be "alpha males" and bang sorority chicks. Which couldn't be further from the truth for the vast majority of fraternities. Shit, Rolling Stone(yes, that Rolling Stone) published an article about a girl that got gang-raped at a fraternity party. Guess what? It all proved to be 100% false : https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2015/11/09/phi-psi-chapter-at-u-va-files-25-million-lawsuit-against-rolling-stone/

Of course there are your "bad apples" but there are "bad apples" in literally every fucking situation where you have a group of 2 or more people doing something as a group.

Find out who does the most philanthropy and raises the most money for charity at your local university. Guaran-fucking-tee its not the athletic department/teams. Guaran-fucking-tee its the Greeks. My school has a small-shmedium sized greek life (I think 9 sororities and 8-9 fraternities? at a school of 30,000...) and every year, counting all the philanthropies and shit, raise 400-600k for multiple charities...every fucking year.

I know that it was just one sentence in your post, but it triggered me. I haven't seen too much anti-fraternity posts on here, but a lot of the time on reddit theres some raging virgin neckbeard talking about how shitty fraternities are, but most if not every time the dude has all the wrong info/ideas/perspective on them, or had a bad experience.

Anyway, back to your post...I agree with some of it. However...

Smokers die horribly and prematurely every year and are not condemned as weak and burdensome wastes of space.

really? opiate/heroin users don't die terrible, premature deaths? and you can't really compare numbers, how many people smoke cigarettes vs use opiates?

How many times has a drunk person who can barely walk or talk said "well aleasht I 'don use drugsh ok"

Really? I bet not a ton. While a person that drinks or even has a drinking problem may be anti-drug, I doubt that more than a couple hundred total in the US actually think that them being an alcoholic is better than someone that smokes pot or takes MDMA once in a while or whatever. I bet that many more think they are better than "hard" drug addicts such as heroin/meth/crack addicts. Now while you shouldn't throw stones at a glass house, you can't really argue whos better or whos worse in that kinda situation.

Statistics show very few heroin users are able to abstain for life.

link? how many is very few? I find that "very few" is hard to believe.

Of course parents, partners and society in general don't help either.

this is bullshit. theres no quantifiable data showing "parents, family members, spouses/significant others/whatever the fuck you mean by society in general(friends?) don't help at all with addiction".

If I had to say so myself, i'd find the oppostite to be true in the vaaast majority of cases. First off, a parents love for their child is rarely if ever matched by anything. Most of the time, if parents find out that their child is struggling with addiction, their first thought is "we need to get him help". Of course there are parents that would say "get out of my home you dirty drug addict!" but even the ultra religious anti-drug types would want to try and help their child first. If the child keeps relapsing or wont stop using or wont get help, thats where more parents would get upset and cause problems...but those problems are directly caused by the child unwiling to get help. Similar case for general family members.

I can't speak on spouses or significant others since my girlfriends during my times of addiction didn't know. But i'm sure they would both of wanted to A. understand why I use/do what I do B. want to get me proper help ASAP. From reading different stories on here, both from the side of an addict whos S/O just found out about their addiction, AND the side of a S/O that found about their S/Os addiction, it seems like the vast majority of husbands/wives just want to help their significant other get better and beat their addiction....I think it would be rare to find a husband or wife immediatley disown their husband/wife for a "first time" drug problem...now if the husband/wife wont seek help or they keep relapsing, thats where I can see the relationship getting toxic(rightfully so) and potential irreversable damage done.

The society part makes little sense to me. If at all you mean friends, I have found that its more "risky" here. A lot of friends will just straight up drop you if they find out you're an addict. There is a big bad stigma about it. Less so for alcoholics, while the "ultimate" stigma seems to be any needle user, but especially heroin users. While I personally think this stigma makes sense, especially as someone whom only has friends that are casual drug users(most have done mdma/opiates very rarely/cocaine on occasion). However, my 2 best friends that I told about my heroin addiction were 1000000% supportive and understanding.

Pharmaceutical quality opiates are almost harmless if used carefully.

I wouldn't really say that. Whats "used carefully"? Thats a broad statement. I could go further into this but i'm getting tired.

but is there any doubt a daily heroin user will almost certainly outlive, by a considerable number of years, a daily alcohol consumer?

uh kinda yeah. a daily heroin user is much more likely to overdose than an alcoholic. also, a daily (iv) heroin user faces the chance of missing and getting an abcess, or even worse, if the heroin is cut with something "bad", they could become poisoned or otherwise permanently affected. 99% of alcoholics are drinking booze thats "clean", while i'd say 90% of heroin users are using heroin thats cut; not necesarily cut with something "bad" for you, but still cut. And while this isn't a super common problem unless you're homeless or really stupid(which is a surprisngly high number of heroin users...) sharing of needles which leads to HIV/AIDS/Hepatitis/other terrible diseases and whatnot..no alcoholic is getting those via just drinking.

Anyhoo...I didn't really mean to type all of this. I do kinda agree with the other poster(s) saying it looks like you're trying to justify you not getting clean, but also just justifying your use in general. Too tired to go into further detail. Interesting viewpoints and whatnot but a lot of your views are either straight up wrong, lack any logic behind them, or you have no proof to support them.