Source
r/Netrunner•
Hasire

Rules Question: Game State change and interactions with both I've Had Worse and Street Peddler

Question

Two separate cases here I am curious about:

I've Had Worse: Can you play an I've Had Worse from hand with no cards left in the deck?

Expectation: Yes, because if you need to draw cards but don't have enough cards to draw, you draw as many as able, 0.

Street Peddler: Can you use the trash ability of a Street Peddler with no cards that can be installed?

Expectation: No, because like Clone Chip you cannot use a card ability that cannot resolve. Your 3 events are now stuck unless you have another way to clear the resource.

Posted Jul 26, 2016, 3:33 AM UTC

819
RestarttGaming•

Believe it or not, these actually aren't two separate questions. They're the same question: "can I use an action or ability if the effect (not the cost, but the effect) wont change the game state?"

The generic idea to keep in mind, that answers these types of questions, is this passage in the FAQ:

Triggering Actions and Abilities
A player can only trigger an action or ability if its effect has the potential to change the game state. This potential is assessed without taking into account the consequences of paying play, install, or rez costs or triggering any further abilities.
Example: The Corp cannot play Archived Memories if there are no cards in Archives

Street Peddler ruling: You cannot use it

https://www.reddit.com/r/Netrunner/comments/3cwc41/rules_street_peddler_with_3_events/

I've had worse: no, you cannot use it.

you cannot play a card if the effect (not the cost or any triggered abilities) will not change the game state.

7
molster•

could i voluntarily trash the peddler and all the cards on her, say if i wanted to recur one of the things on her?

1
rumirumirumirumiReal Psychic Powers•

You can't trash Street Peddler just for the sake of trashing it. You have to either use its ability or have some effect that will trash it for you (like Aesop's Pawnshop).

3
RestarttGaming•

No. Since the effect of peddler's ability would not change the game state, you cannot use it. What you're talking about is the COST of peddlers ability, which isn't taken into account when determining if the game state changes.

1
boj_man•

What about trashing street peddler (with 3 events) when playing as Geist?

1
RestarttGaming•

Nothing changes

If you reread the quoted rule, it says you don't take into account the cost of the ability (trashing street peddler) or any triggered effects of other cards (like giest).

You purely evaluate the part after the colon. Can you legally do what is after the colon, and will what is after the colon change the game state without considering other triggered abilities. In this case no, you cannot legally do what's after the colon, it won't change the game state, so you can't do it.

2
NBQuetzal•

What is the "game state"?

2
grimwalker•

This is almost tautological. The game state is the sum total of every card and credit in the game, where they are and what they are doing.

You can't take the action "Purge Virus Counters" if there are no counters and no programs to target. After you did so every card and every credit would be the same, and nothing would be interacted with.

You can't Click to Draw a card from an empty deck, likewise everything would be the same, nothing would be interacted with.

Excluded from this consideration is the Cost you'd pay, and the direct results of paying that cost. If Street Peddler hits three Events, then paying its trash cost to install a card has a null result. As a direct result, all four cards are trashed, but the rest of the game state has had no change or interaction.

5
meepmeep13•

Surely, though, the game state is always changed by playing a card, even if the only change is that the number of cards in grip/HQ is reduced by 1 and the number in the heap/archives is increased by 1?

I always understood that rule as being like the ko rule in Go, which exists to avoid infinite repetition.

(I understand this is clarified by the Archives Memories example, I just disagree with the 'game state' wording)

1
grimwalker•

That's why certain aspects of the game state are excluded from consideration, such as cards in your grip or credits paid. With Hernando Cortez out, it would profit you to make a dummy action that cost you $1 if it took you below the threshold to Rez Hive for $5 instead of $8.

1
meepmeep13•

I disagree with this interpretation - no aspects of the game state are excluded from consideration. It's just that only ones affected by the card action - and not ones affected by the playing of the card itself - are considered. If the card text affected the cards in your grip or credits paid, that would be considered as part of a relevant game state change.

1