Source
r/DarkNetMarkets•
sapiophile

Preventing vendor exit scams and flip-outs by decreasing market commission rates over time

NSFWSuggestion

Just had an interesting thought for marketplace admins to chew on, but it would be a big change.

So get this: a brand new vendor on "DNM2.0" starts out paying, I dunno, maybe 5 or 6% commission to the marketplace on each sale, and maybe even as high as 10% to start out. Every week, their commission percentage is reduced by the market, say 0.05% each week (as an example). This gives a direct profit incentive to vendors to preserve their good name and reputation, and increases the costs of burning a name via exit scam or doxxing a customer or something. At 0.05% per week, that would take about two years to reach 0% commission (from 5% to start), which seems about right (maybe have it bottom out at 0.5% or something just to help prevent vendor self-buys and feedback padding). After it bottoms out, the market could even start paying the vendor weekly bonuses of gradually increasing flat amounts (say, start at $20 and add $2.50 per week). This is worthwhile to the market because having a long-standing prestigious vendor drives business to their site. Obviously the market can't do these bonuses as a percentage of sales, since again, the vendor could self-buy, etc., so it may have to require a certain sale minimum of some kind, maybe only counting buyers of some standing themselves. Hmm I guess that gets a little complicated, but it could be really worth it...

Anyway, I think this is maybe not a terrible idea, and might even be better than the conventional "Vendor bond" system we're used to. It could also be combined with vendor bonds, of course.

  • Buyers win because vendors take a much bigger hit if they fuck up. It also makes it way more expensive for new vendors to pad their feedback.

  • Vendors win because their reputation puts more money in their pocket, potentially a lot more.

  • Markets win because they become known as a resource of trustworthy, reliable vendors - and they also get those sweet, fat early commissions.

Curious as to what folks here think, I'm sure there's some really stupid flaw in this plan that I haven't thought of yet, but I think it might have potential.

Posted Oct 14, 2016, 5:34 PM UTC · edited

737
Vendor_BBMC•

Marketplace commissions are never the root cause of exit scams. They are deducted automatically and we don't even think about them.

Personally, I would trade on any marketplace that took 15% commission, but could somehow guarantee not to steal my 85%. Unfortunately, this isn't possible to do in software, because the person owning the marketplace has full control of the code, and root admin access.

My general point of view is that marketplace commissions are generally too low at 4% - 6%. Most vendors couldn't sell drugs or find customers without DNMs, and escrow is the only way that two anonymous parties can trade with confidence.

I like to see big vendor bonds for new vendors on DNMs, to prevent some guy who just grew his first pot plant from becoming a vendor.

I've got an idea which will prevent a few people from getting scammed:- Don't buy from stealth-obsessed one-stop shops

In real life, drugs are a valuable and finite resource. Real drug dealers usually only deal in the one drug they have a (non-DNM) source or "plug" for. That's why I don't sell 84% coke, amnesia haze, pressed MDMA pills, moroccan hash, or ketamine.

"Vendors" who sell everything, bought everything they sell from real darknet vendors. You will never find a real-life "team" who have great sources for every drug and aim to bring you low low prices. If they were so well-connected, they would have heard about darknet markets years ago instead of last month.

Scammers are greedy, so they scam every drug. Scammers are usually psychopaths who don't trust anybody else and avoid responsibility, so they are usually a "Team" or "Crew". All fighting to use the same laptop and having access to the same bitcoin wallet I assume!

So don't buy off exit scammers, and you are unlikely to get scammed. Avoid vendors who say "we" instead of "I", vendors who call you "my friend" in messages, one-stop shops, who are "new. yet experienced somehow". Avoid vendors who talk all day about stealth, but only two sentences about their drugs. Avoid vendors with "pharma", "RX", a country or city name, or a QuickEmart name.

The DutchPharma4U team will scam you. People from the Netherlands don't say "Holland" or "Dutch".

Also, if a vendor says "Be safe", run a fucking mile. He's pretending to be on the same side as you junky scum. "Those police, eh? Grrrr" (shakes fist). They generally don't use drugs. Some high-functioning psychopaths like Pelican_Vendor can use some drugs and not show their true self, but then they get into cocaine and forget which shill account is good cop and which one is bad cop. You won't see a real-life shop owner pretending to be other people. Only scammers sneak about. That's why you KNOW that Pelican will exit scam, and you can hold me to that statement.

7
sapiophileOP•

Marketplace commissions are never the root cause of exit scams. They are deducted automatically and we don't even think about them.

I don't really believe that. An extra 5 or even 10% in your pocket, of straight profit, is definitely something a vendor cares about. And if they can't do even that kind of math, or if they're stupid enough to not even think at all about the market's cut, then I don't want them on the DNMs anyway.

2
TrollasisMarket •

Here is a problem with that (but there will probably be a problem with everything.)

A vendor is playing the long long game. Opens, moves weight, gains great reputation, stays in service long enough for the fees to bottom out, has tons of orders and many people FE because he's trusted. They don't want to stop vending, but they are getting greedy. They decide to open another vending account, and only do small sales. Keeps both accounts going for a year. His main gains even more in FE orders, he then stops sending orders and just collects until that account gets closed.

Since he already had another account for over a year, it's 'trusted'. So he can continue to vend while still having the nearly bottomed or fees

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BOOFSQUAD•

u/Pelican_Vendor told me he wouldn't exit scam unless I stopped cumming in his asshole every night and I don't think I'm gonna run outta cum anytime soon so I don't think that he'll exit scam. Plus I care about the community too much to stop my nightly pleasureful balls bursting experiences in his tight sweet feathery asshole every night.

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Pelican_Vendor•

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Pelican_Vendor•

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magicthrowaway12312 •

Agreed that excessive "bro talk" like "be safe" and stuff is a bad sign but I disagree on the one stop shop thing.

In my experience, vendors who only sell one product are way more reliable.

I buy bars from a bar person, shrooms from a shroom guy, coke from a coke guy.

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tryptdn•

You misunderstood, BBMC is saying the same thing as you... To not use the one stop shops.

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Morvu•

with some of your examples you accuse alot of vendors which i would consider trusted (long 'relationship', never was scammed by them)...so i think this isnt the ultimate truth..

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Novelty-Bobble•

He created a union for vendors, it guaranteed it's vendors were all super trust-worthy and them exit scamming wasn't possible. To date two have scammed, one he knows personally. Take everything he says with a shipping vessel of salt.

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sapiophileOP•

I like to see big vendor bonds for new vendors on DNMs, to prevent some guy who just grew his first pot plant from becoming a vendor.

Yeah, me too: https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/2xmcdn/an_end_to_exit_scams_could_markets_with_very_high/?ref=search_posts

This idea is kind of a new spin on that since people hated that idea, and with lots of good reasons.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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Pelican_Vendor•

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ToShowWithWords•

Only if you use it on a semi-regular basis. It's $60 shipped for a high quality gram from scripps (not saying the best, saying good). A dose is around 50mg, one person might want 5 doses during a night of partying. If you only do it on special occasions and don't have a large stim tolerance and you have a modicum of self control $15 once a fortnight or less is somthing everyone can afford.

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Pelican_Vendor•

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TheOpiateKing •

Lol a vendor.

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Pelican_Vendor•

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ToShowWithWords•

BBMC makes a ton of predictions then whenever one ends up being right he uses it as evidence that he's a professional judge of character. Confirmation bias at its worst, smh.

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Dog3Way•

This ^ is completely correct.

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RainbowNose•

don't buy off exit scammers, and you are unlikely to get scammed.

Oh BBMC, please look into your crystal ball for me and tell me which UK vendors are exit scammers.

If you have this wisdom, it's only right to divulge it to community.

P.s. (if you actually know, I'm not being sarcy I'd love it to be shared, you talk about not buying off exit scammers with such an authoritative manner, so you must know who's gonna do it/ is doing it)

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doeboyfreessh•

BBMC if I may ask why don't you like alphabay ? I don't really care that much just curious . Is it just cuz u don't like trappy an that AB is "started by fruadsters"? They don't seem to be going anywhere I would say outta all the diff Market people I have seen write on this sub , AB an trappy seem to "sneak around the least" An come off to me being the most authentic in how they walk the walk SO to speak .

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BobArctor_007•

EIC had this system and multisig and they still exit scammed on us. I hate to say this but it seems a lot of the problems are with the buyers. You might be shocked at some of the things buyers do or ask me. Or maybe not, since you probably see the same dumb questions asked over and over again on this sub.

I suppose this may reduce the number of fly by night scamming vendors, but an exit scam similar to TGUK will still be very profitable. Vendor BBMC makes some good points about vendor red flags to watch for.

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ciphersexual•

Can you explain what you mean by "a lot of the problem is with the buyers?" I get that there are lots of idiots and scammy buyers out there but don't see how that plays into vendor exit scams.

(Btw I both read and watched A Scanner Darkly after doing business with you. Thanks for the excellent unintentional recommendation)

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BobArctor_007•

I probably could have worded that better.

How it plays into vendor exit scams is the lack of research before buying. There are plenty of warning signs that Vendor BBMC points out that many either ignore or do not recognize. Additionally, After a few days in to an exit scam it should become clear, yet many choose to buy anyway.

I am glad you like the book/movie I think this might be the rare case where the movie is as good or better than the book. Robert Downey Jr really becomes Jim Barris.

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pinochetHA•

This could definitely work in making certain types of exit scam cost prohibitive. A possibly odd but probably feasible comparison is Tor guard nodes. By requiring a relay to have good uptime and bandwidth over a period of time before it can become a guard node we force a would be attacker to spend some resources on getting his malicious guard node established. Similarly the would be exit scammer is hit with high commission fees which are going to hurt and slow down his progress. Of course this particular sword is double-edged as he also loses all his progress when he exit scams and must invest his time and money again to become re-established with the increased expenses the commission fees create.

The only flaw I can see with this idea is that it assumes the exit scammer is rational and rationally motivated. For professional exit scammers who do this shit all the time and are planning their next moves, increased commissions will fuck things up. They will do the maths and see how much it hurts them. For a newish but kinda established vendor an exit scam isn't always planned a long time in advance. They can be emotionally motivated by a fight with their girlfriend/family, scared about being caught or influenced any number of other factors, and they can just say fuck it and pull the plug. A 5% difference in commission is not going to even be worth consideration for them. For someone in that situation money in your wallet right now is worth a lot more than some nebulous offer of cheaper commissions over time, which they will only enjoy assuming they invest effort in their business accepting the involved risks and difficulties, don't get caught and their market doesn't exit scam/get busted etc. The thinking of this kind of exit scammer is short term rather than rational and long term.

The system you propose fails well however, as when this "casual" exit scammers realizes how dumb they were to throw away a good rep and decide they want back in they learn the hard way how much it costs to exit scam.

TLDR; Its a good idea and could improve things.

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Morvu•

buyers will win? well...i only see vendors increase prices and buyers have to pay..

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sapiophileOP•

New vendors take a hit on price anyway, they have to sell cheap in order to build a rep, so this is just an extension of that. Of course it makes it even tougher for new vendors, but that's kinda the point...

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doeboyfreessh•

Wouldn't this make it easier to pull off big exit scams ? Trusted vendors having tons of clients then just fuckin off when they made enough ? New vendors keep the old guys on there toes . You don't wanna turn away a great vendor cuz it's to hard to get started An keep a bad one just cuz he's been building his exit longer .

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Morvu•

so this would also decrease the number of vendors i guess...which would make the impact of a single vendor doing a exit scam increase dramatically, hitting the buyers..(and if there are less vendors, a exit scam for a established vendor becomes more likely since his earnings do increase, right?)

edit: another problem would be all markets would have to do something like that all together at a time...otherwise vendors would go the easiest way (not all of course, but pretty much of them) and join the ones not following this new system

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sapiophileOP•

so this would also decrease the number of vendors i guess

I mean, barely, in my opinion. Someone with a good connect who wants to vend is still going to do it. If the difference of a couple % in commission is enough to make it unworkable for them, they probably shouldn't be vending anyway. Any new business should have some assets saved up to help get them off the ground, that's the way of the world, at least among this terrible capitalist bullshit.

which would make the impact of a single vendor doing a exit scam increase dramatically

That seems like a stretch, to me, and ignores the way the economics of the situation would help reduce that, besides.

and if there are less vendors, a exit scam for a established vendor becomes more likely since his earnings do increase, right?

This part I just don't follow at all, but seems like the opposite of what would happen. I'd be glad to hear it explained though, I'm definitely open to potential problems.

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Morvu•

wasnt sure about that last part, thats why i added the question mark...its like..a good vendor just quits business without a exit scam, he maybe would have earned like 50k if he had done it (these numbers are just for example) , but considered it isnt worth it.

with the new system, he may be able to earn 100k or even more, and we all know, everyone got his price..i think this would make a few people really considering doing a exit scam instead of just quitting his business without doing that (the more they can earn, the more likely they will do it)

you get my point? (excuse my bad english)

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Tunnah1984•

Markets don't lose out when vendors bail. They have no incentive to combat exits

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magicthrowaway12312 •

Bottom line is don't FE and you have very little chance of being scammed.

and even then, sometimes a lost pack is a cost of doing business.

It still beats the hell out of actually having to go out and deal with drug dealers IRL.

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stickykitty1•

Hansa has a decreasing market commission system, although it decreases very slowly, and I don't pay that much attention to it. Still, every time I reach a new level, I think to myself: all my hard work is finally paying off. ;-)

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BrazzerBo •

When you try to act like government you will get corruption.

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