Source
r/Guitar•
FilthyTerrible

[DISCUSSION] Blind sound test; Can you tell which is the 335 and which sound is the Telecaster?

DISCUSSION

Fun test and educational (not mine), I found it on the Seymour Duncan discussion forum by a user I'll credit later. There are two different guitars playing essentially the same riff in a single sound cloud file...

https://soundcloud.com/jake-jones-williams/bridge-clean/s-3wN9M

...you can see a break in the waveform where one stops and the other starts. One is a Telecaster and one is an Epiphone es335, they are both using the same pickup.

It was way tougher than I thought it should have been and I have both Telecasters and 335s.

Put in your guesses and I'll post his answer, and a link to his answer.

EDIT: "Both guitars have a Tv Jones classic plus in the bridge, 500k pots and .033 caps, also the strings are about the same age, pickup height is the same and the same plectrum was used etc etc also both pickups are 100% stock even the pole pieces are untouched."

Answer is now posted below with SPOILER ++++ SPOILER

And here are the users that got it before the answer was available:

muddagaki rrenze universal_rehearsal Jaffaborn makoivis (points for being super cocky about it) pm_me_ur_regret MalvOfAlaska 1man_factory saintjonah (was half right but points for trying to guess both)

Posted Jan 11, 2017, 7:25 PM UTC · edited

66192
KleyPlaysyoutube.com/user/kleydj13•

1 - Tele

2 - 335

50
PolitivoreGretsch•

Also my pick. The second half of the track sounded like it had more, I don't know, body to it? (Then again, I guess it could be a Thinline Tele...)

9
CRFyou•

That's where I'm at. 2nd seemed a little more thick to me. Where the first was more clarity and trebley...

4
dBRenekton•

This is my pick too.

7
tnecnivJazzmaster•

Same

5
sounds_n_stuff•

I listened once, and thought the opposite.

5
CondorKhan•

I agree, but it's really quite close

3
Bjd1207Gibson•

Same, Tele first in the clean one

3
[deleted]•

Same

2
Woooddann•

Going with this as well.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
rrenzeFender•

1- 335

2- Tele

28
TheHarshCarpets•

I own both, and my 335 is almost annoyingly bright on my fender amps, but it's a bit thicker and less spiky than the tele's brightness, so I agree.

3
universal_rehearsal•

I hear that Tele spank creepin through on 2 as well.

2
FilthyTerribleOP•

SPOILER ++++ SPOILER

Don't read further if you don't want to know

The 335 was First in BOTH clips, tele was second in both.

Originator of this test was jake_xms3_punk from Wales. And this was posted in 2015. Here's the link to the old post on the SeymourDuncan discussion groups. Answer is on this page near the bottom, it has a little hide button:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?287866-tele-vs-335-same-pickup-blind-test

Before the answer was posted 68% of people guessed wrong.

10
sounds_n_stuff•

Can we finally stop pretending that tone wood matters so much in a guitar and acknowledge that 99% of what you're hearing is the pickups?

18
Mordiken•

Can we finally stop pretending that tone wood matters so much in a guitar and acknowledge that 99% of what you're hearing is the pickups?

Exhibit A.

Do a blind test, if you will. Listen to the way the notes decay, and which notes "pop out" the most when you let the chords "ring out".

If all those guitars sound the same to you.. well... they don't to me.

The OPs test is not that great, to be completely honest: We're not just comparing Mahogany and Alder/Ash/Pine/Whatever, we're comparing a semi-hollow body with a solid body, and it's known that semi-hollow bodies provide a somewhat warmer tonal characteristic. So there wasn't even any room for doubt.

So, IMO, both construction an construction material does influence the sound of any instrument, and that includes the electric guitar, although I'll give you that 99% of what what you hear is the pickups. These sort of minute harmonic details are more important and noticeable when playing single coils and low output pickups in general, as high output pickups tend to overwhelm them under a torrent of output (which is also the reason why so many cheap "Metal" guitar can be made of low quality materials and still manage to sound pretty nice with high gain).

4
fizzlebottom•

One very glaring problem in the video you linked is that every single one of the pickups used in those 9 guitars (27 pickups total) are hand-wound, which presents a myriad of possible variations in how they actually turned out. Humans are not as precise as machines when it comes to manufacturing things to tight tolerances.

Right idea, wrong execution.

5
makoivis•

Fair enough, but that sounds like a cop out. People tried to argue the same in this clip about how it's impossible to tell the difference between a 335 and a tele with the same electronics. These are of course the same people who didn't hear the difference between two radically different guitar constructions.

In this example the difference between swamp ash and mahogany is pretty obvious, but that's sort of the extreme ends of the spectrum. I'd bet almost anything on being able to tell them apart in a comparison.

Some people hear the difference, others don't. The people who say that only pick-ups matter are right in that they don't hear the difference in other than pick-ups.

It's a bit annoying that the people who can't hear the difference keep insisting others can't as well. Just because you can't hear the difference in the construction of the guitar (wood choice included) does not mean others can't.

3
makoivis•

Can those of use who hear the difference keep on insisting we hear the difference? I'm okay with the idea that 68% don't.

4
sounds_n_stuff•

Sure!
I hear the difference too.
But if two such distinct guitars can sound so strikingly similar when using the same pickup, then it is clear that the pickup is the largest contributor to sound.
There's a really neat video in this thread that shows otherwise identical guitars made out of different woods, and there are a lot of differences in sound. But there's no control group. What happens when you take 5 guitars made of the same wood? I'd bet you can hear differences there too. Which tells me that wood matters, but not necessarily wood type.
In the end though, if you like mahogany guitars, I'm not going to tell you that you should like alder. It's up to you!

E: And if 68% of guitar players can't tell them apart when they know that there are two choices, do you really think the average listener will care? Just food for though.

2
makoivis•

I have never ever said the listener cares. They really really don't, any more than I care about what synth some keyboardist is playing. I only care about it when I'm at the keyboard.

The hilarious thing here is that it's worse than 50/50. It seems people have preconceptions about what the guitars should sound like as opposed to actual experience in what they sound like. The people who play a 335 didn't have much trouble telling the two apart.

2
GourmetCoffeeNever upvotes teles•

I agree, I believe that wood influences the guitar sound, but not in a predictable, quantifiable way due to the extreme amount of variables in density, grain, water content etc. of each piece of the same wood type.

Whatever a guitar string is attached to will leech energy out of that string effecting how much energy is left in it as it rings out. The dynamics of the resonant peaks of the entire guitar as a unit will have a tiny perceptible effect on the natural EQ of the guitar.

So tiny, that many people can't even hear it without a proper sound system.

In other words, it matters, not in any amount I would quantify with dollar bills. I'd rather spend $500 more on my amp than $500 more for a guitar made of rare wood.

3
S1icedBread•

Tone wood doesn't mean anything.

At first I thought I was going crazy because they sounded so alike, then I realized what he mean by 'same pickup', not just same position.

2†
Mordiken•

Tone wood doesn't mean anything.

Well, that's just like... you're opinion, man!

I bet you I can tell mahogany from alder.

The material the instrument is made of, whatever that is, has an impact on the "natural eq" of the guitar, and influences the harmonic content of every note, and is particularly noticeable when you let chords "ring out", specially when using lower output pickups. Exhibit A.

At first I thought I was going crazy because they sounded so alike, then I realized what he mean by 'same pickup', not just same position.

What? No they don't! The second guitar clearly has brighter harmonics and the higher register strings are noticeably louder.

Even before we get to add to the infamous tonewood debate, it's undeniable that by virtue of geometry, scale length and construction alone, both guitars should sound noticeably different, and they do.

6
S1icedBread•

you're opinion, man!

Lol, my opinion is that if you're listening to a song and can't name the wood/body shape after the third listen, then tonewood doesn't matter.

Sure, maybe if you have two short, identical tracks side by side you can nitpick a few details, but if somebody recorded a song with only one of the guitars would you be able to guess "He's using the 335 in this song"? If you can only tell the difference when listening to one against the other on an identical track, then what's the point?

Whereas, you can tell almost right away if somebody is playing a song with a classic telecaster vs a classic les paul, especially if theyre using a fairly clean tone.

1
makoivis•

Turns out 68% of r/guitar doesn't have a very discerning ear.

10
GourmetCoffeeNever upvotes teles•

Or shitty laptop speakers or something. I have headphones and it was pretty evident.

3
makoivis•

I played my clarinet-playing SO the clip off of phone speakers and the difference was discernible even then. I don't think people can get away with blaming the speakers on this one.

1
PolitivoreGretsch•

Interesting and good to know. Did he mention what kind of Tele it was?

2
dnr101Martin, FrankenTele, Peavey•

Hey, just read that forum post where it says that both guitars had the same pickup, "a Tv Jones classic plus in the bridge, 500k pots and .033 caps" which to me explains why I didn't hear either guitar sound bright and twangy enough, though I thought the first was brighter.. Mostly I was just listening for humbucker vs single coil, so nice sneaky curve ball ;-) gotta stay on yer toes around here!

2
FilthyTerribleOP•

Tele is a homebuilt partscaster made from one piece hard ash with a birds eye maple neck, steel bridge with 3 brass saddles. A very solid, solid-body Telecaster by any measure.

1
helpblink•

It could be that the Telecaster is simply the better built guitar. I'd definitely rather play a one-piece wood custom guitar than a $500 Epiphone.

To my ears anyways, the second clip sounded far fuller and the first clip has that thin, cheap guitar sound.

3
FilthyTerribleOP•

I think someone should post a blind test and we should see who can rank five guitars in order of price.

1
ArtSchnurple•

Might have been easier to figure out if you didn't straight out LIE in the description.

1
FilthyTerribleOP•

Lie about what?

2
DifteR•

I don't think it's a matter of there being no difference. There's a difference for sure. It's just that the first one seems a bit brigher and most of us associate brightness with a tele.

1
makoivis•

Well yes, if you play neither guitar you might get all kinds of false conclusions. Meanwhile those who play the instruments in the example get things right.

1
makoivis•

335 first in both clips.

Pretty easy to hear if you actually play a 335.

8
[deleted]•

[deleted]

3
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
muddagaki•

I have an epi 335 and ima say it was the first one, i hope I'm right or my ear sucks.

7
FilthyTerribleOP•

I ain't saying yet, not until there are enough responses to push my post to the bottom. But to add to your pain and confusion, check out the same two guitars with distortion, I posted it just now.

2
makoivis•

Putting my ass on the line here with you.

2
DifteR•

The first one is a tele. I'm 99% sure

6
FilthyTerribleOP•

Have a listen with dirt:

https://soundcloud.com/jake-jones-williams/bridge-od/s-RNeJS

3
R_lawGibson, PRS•

Are they same order on both?

2
makoivis•

that's part of the challenge

3
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
Ben_Chokin•

1 is the 335

2 is the Tele

5
jpope777•
  1. Tele335
  2. 335caster
4
Wootison•

So can you just say which is which already?

4
[deleted]•

[deleted]

4
cortez_cardinal•

First ones has a more full mid range in my oppinion. Got the feeling right away but had to compare certain parts side to side to really be sure it wasn't just my imagination.

I have no clue if that would point to the tele or the 335... What does it come down to in your oppinion if it's both the same pickup? The wood? Manufacturing? Wiring?

4
raditaz'92 LP Studio•

Humbuckers + hollow body make the sound less thin.

3
cortez_cardinal•

Well OP did claim that the same pickups are used.

Hollow body makes sense but shouldn't the deep notes also be richer then?

2
raditaz'92 LP Studio•

Oh I missed the pickup and wiring description! Wow. Not sure exactly what a richer bottom end would entail but the 335 recording definitely seemed thicker and more acoustic.

2
FilthyTerribleOP•

I find that a hollowbody gives a slight echo-y flavour to the low notes that diminishes towards the higher frequencies. The low E string is where a Les Paul and 335 distinguish themselves the most in my opinion. I personally, wouldn't describe it as richness. But if you describe reverb as rich then rich is an entirely appropriate word to use. Can you describe a Les Paul's lower tones as fat, and the 335 as rich? I'm entirely uncertain as to what adjectives are appropriate.

1
FilthyTerribleOP•

I heard es335 only in the low E on the clean comparison. And then I looked at the answer. It was way tougher than I thought it should have been. I heard no difference the first listen, took four listens. And I've played an es335 for 25+ years. I was a little terrified I wouldn't get it. Of course after I knew the answer and I listened to the dirty track I said to myself, oh yeah, no mistaking the 335.

1
pm_me_ur_regret•

1 - 335

2 - Tele

You can hear the single coil noise. Plus, it sounds a tad bit fuller to my ears, and I've always thought that a stand alone single coil sounds better than a humbucker with only one coil at work, if that was even the case.

Listening to the track with OD, I notice that the 1st track sounded a bit thinner as well and the pickup noise was clear on the 2nd. I'm all too familiar with it as my PRS has P90s and I have to work around that noise when recording, especially with any dirt.

3
purple1864•

They're using the same pickups

8
pm_me_ur_regret•

One has pickup noise and one does not, so they can't be the same pickups. If they were both single coils, they'd both have noise. If they were both humbuckers, they would not...or they both would if they were using an ungrounded outlet.

They might be the same position (bridge vs neck), but if they are using the same exact pickup model and wiring, then we need an explanation as to why one has pickup noise and one does not.

-1
PolitivoreGretsch•

Per OP:

"Both guitars have a Tv Jones classic plus in the bridge, 500k pots and .033 caps, also the strings are about the same age, pickup height is the same and the same plectrum was used etc etc also both pickups are 100% stock even the pole pieces are untouched."

4
pm_me_ur_regret•

Interesting. I'm curious as to why one has pickup noise in it and one does not. The wood of the guitar, or one being hollow, shouldn't affect the electrical signal of the guitar...it would just affect the tone.

Perhaps the guitar in the 2nd clip of each track has a ground issue in the guitar itself, which could be a possible explanation that makes one sound like a single coil and one not.

I have a tele with stacked single coils and I get noise because my house has ungrounded outlets, but I get none in a house that has grounded outlets.

0
purple1864•

I personally am not hearing any pickup noise.

But the OP was confusing and should clarify what he means by 'same pickup'. Same position? Same model? Or same exact pickup in both guitars?

2
pm_me_ur_regret•

You can hear it more evident in the track with dirt. Listen to the end as the note rings out. You will hear a buzzing. It's the "hum" that the humbucker bucks.

1
ZagatoZee•

they are both using the same pickup.

...

You can hear the single coil noise.

3
pm_me_ur_regret•

One has pickup noise and one does not, so they can't be the same pickups. If they were both single coils, they'd both have noise. If they were both humbuckers, they would not...or they both would if they were using an ungrounded outlet. They might be the same position (bridge vs neck), but if they are using the same exact pickup model and wiring, then we need an explanation as to why one has pickup noise and one does not.

My response above. "Using the same pickup" may be misleading if the OP doesn't clarify whether they mean model or position. Some people use the term "pickup" to mean both, but it makes a huge distinction.

You can hear the noise just before the 2nd clean clip starts playing and there's no missing at the end of the version with some overdrive.

1
ZagatoZee•

You probably missed the OPs edit to the top post,

EDIT: "Both guitars have a Tv Jones classic plus in the bridge, 500k pots and .033 caps, also the strings are about the same age, pickup height is the same and the same plectrum was used etc etc also both pickups are 100% stock even the pole pieces are untouched."

1
pm_me_ur_regret•

I did. It wasn't there when I posted and I'm just responding to replies to my post.

It still raises questions. The tone difference is due to the (likely) alder or ash body of the tell and the semi-hollow or hollowbody. Those things do actually matter, even on electric guitars.

1
FilthyTerribleOP•

You got it, but there is no single coil noise - same pickup on both, TV Jones humbucker.

1
pm_me_ur_regret•

There's pickup noise of some kind. At 13 seconds of your clean track and around 43 of the dirt track before the volume fades out. So your tele might have a ground wire issue or something with the electronics. I heard it on my head phones at work and my speakers here at home.

1
[deleted]•

335, then Tele - no question about it.... I was expecting it to be hard.

3
FilthyTerribleOP•

Most people had to answer before the answer was posted and you posted after the answer was posted. Not knowing which is which makes people a bit less cocky I find. Just sayin.

2
[deleted]•

Yea, the audio links weren't even available when I posted. I read the spoiler and posted so everyone would know how smart I am...

1
FilthyTerribleOP•

Or you guessed correctly, then looked, and then when you saw you were right, got a bit cockier in posting your answer. I'm not in anyway accusing you of that, I'm simply saying that you present a false dichotomy. Before I posted the answer, the only cocky answer came from makoivis. So it's possible to listen to that sample and be absolutely certain. Just pointing out an excluded middle option that you overlook.

1
[deleted]•

No, I'm telling you I actually didn't guess correctly and just read the answer and literally typed it in.... because the soundcloud links were not functional when I tried. I wasn't being coy... this is exactly what I did.

1
Karzoth•

I'm a beginner. I usually feel like I'm terrible at these tone comparison things, but I actually found this quite easy. Safe to say, I'm kinda pleased haha. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

3
WishSomeoneWouldSay•

Awesome mindset! Keep that attitude up and don't skip practice, and you'll be pro in no time. Also, pleeeesseee for the love, don't limit yourself to only one style of music, no matter how cool and niche the scene gets, because it is not worth it. That will stunt your growth and would be an absolute shame.

2
Karzoth•

I like learning everything I can, so I won't be actively limiting myself, don't worry!

1
throwawoofwoofGibson•

Before I look - First one is the 335

EDIT: Yay, I got it right. Although probably nobody will believe me since I only saw this and commented after the answer was available. Oh well, I just went by the fact that the first guitar had more low end and low mids.

3
makoivis•

I believe you

1
throwawoofwoofGibson•

Thanks, and happy cakeday!

2
deaconblues99•

Quick tabulation of the data so far (as of 6:45 am Eastern, 1/12):

Total responses in which a clear guess was made: 42

Correct: 18 (43%)

Incorrect: 24 (57%)

I'd love to see this with a larger sample size. But as it stands right now, we're edging toward providing good statistical evidence that as a population, the posters in r/Guitar can't tell the difference between an ES-335 and a Telecaster if the same pickups, electronics, strings, and pick are used. Presumably the same amplifier, cables, and recording setup were used.

So this experiment is actually pretty well set up, with everything more or less controlled for except the guitars. This is one of the better organized (that I've seen) tests of how much an electric guitar's construction vs. its electronics really influences what comes out of the amp.

Possible confounding issues:

  1. We don't know if all listeners have the same basic sound playback capabilities

  2. We don't know what experience the listeners have with hearing each of these guitars previously

  3. We frankly don't know if the people responding constitute a good representative population, and what kind of preconceptions each respondent has with respect to how each guitar should sound.

3
dr_Fart_Sharting•
  1. We don't know if all listeners have the same basic sound playback capabilities

I'd say this doesn't matter. You can safely bandpass a guitar's signal between 250Hz and 8000Hz, without changing the signature of the sound. A strat sounds like a strat even through a telephone line (400-4000Hz). Most people have playback systems that can go both below 250Hz and above 8kHz.

I think that one of the answers (the wrong one) jumping to the top of the comments might have skewed the results.

3
deaconblues99•

I think that one of the answers (the wrong one) jumping to the top of the comments might have skewed the results.

That may be, but I think a counter-acting effect could also be the tendency for online posters to want to argue and one-up each other. There's no way to filter that out in this dataset, although it would be interesting to try if this were better set up.

Still, if people seeing the wrong answer increased the frequency of incorrect responses, then it would actually be more likely to adjust the numbers closer to 50 / 50. And a statistical test would indicate from that kind of spread that as a population, folks couldn't distinguish reliably at all.

3
FilthyTerribleOP•

People like to argue, but they do not like to look stupid. In this case there was a correct answer and that answer was going to be revealed. People conform quickly to the majority opinion, even if they have initial doubts. Consensus of a crowd interferes with human beings ability to form independent opinions. Even the rebels among us often conform rigidly to rebellious archetypes. We just have a different group of peers.

-1
deaconblues99•

I'm really not sure what you're getting at. The numbers don't bear out whatever kind of groupthink you're suggesting came into play here. They're close to 50 / 50, and only slightly leaning toward wrong.

Basically, that means that as a population, r/Guitar is only slightly better at choosing the correct order than a coin toss. Statistically, any given poster was almost equally likely to pick the wrong answer as to pick the right answer.

Your theory doesn't really hold up, because we don't see massive numbers going for the correct choice after you posted the answer, nor do we see massive numbers piling onto the incorrect choice (which is slightly out ahead).

2
FilthyTerribleOP•

The Tele/335 was the majority opinion and shot to the top, that would have a direct effect on proceeding respondents. That's not a probably, that's a definitely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyDDyT1lDhA

1
FilthyTerribleOP•

Keep in mind that the answer is now posted in the thread. Before I posted the answer 15 folks were wrong and only 7 were right.

For those of us with 335s I venture to say we seem to pick up on the distinctive low end rumble and increased mid. Some folks weren't clear on the fact that both guitars had the same exact pickup in the bridge and their expectation of hearing a telecaster single coil twang probably confused them. Expectation is a powerful thing.

0
deaconblues99•

I presume that people answered before they saw the correct order, otherwise they wouldn't have answered.

If they had answered after they saw the correct order, then the numbers would not be the way they were.

2
FilthyTerribleOP•

We'll call your theory the "people are completely honest with themselves and others" theory of human psychology. I think some people guessed and posted and then looked. I suspect that some guessed, looked and then posted or chose not to post. And a few guessed, looked and then posted the correct response.

0
FilthyTerribleOP•

Oh and here's one with overdrive - same two guitars, Tele and 335 with the same pickup.

https://soundcloud.com/jake-jones-williams/bridge-od/s-RNeJS

2
KleyPlaysyoutube.com/user/kleydj13•

When you say 'same pickup' what exactly do you mean? Literally the same model of pickup, or same pickup position?

3
Ojijab•

I think he's saying it's the bridge pickup on both.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

2
makoivis•

literally same model

1
FilthyTerribleOP•

I added the pickup and configuration up top in the Question.

1
osmanthegreat•

they sound the same...

2
FilthyTerribleOP•

Yeah, that was the educational part for me. I think that there's a difference and I 'think' I picked up on it. I own both guitars but more importantly, I think, I had a 50/50 chance, so having guessed correctly, I'm likely biased in thinking that I can tell the difference and that a difference exists. But I could not tell on the first listen. I had to listen four times. On first listen I couldn't even tell where he stopped playing one and started playing the other.

2
osmanthegreat•

there might be a slight difference due to some very little nuances such as picking, the distance between pickup and the strings, little winding differences in pickups etc.

however, they produce the same output for me. imho no one here would be able to say they are different guitars if you didn't say that they are.

2
makoivis•

Are you kidding? They're obviously two different guitars. It's not even close.

2
FilthyTerribleOP•

I think you might be right. On first play-through I didn't know where one stopped and the other started.

1
makoivis•

This is really hard for me to grasp. The difference jumps out at me even on laptop speakers.

1
makoivis•

They really don't, but I guess it takes some training to hear it.

1
EugenernatorTakamine D21C | LTD EC-256 | LTD M-103FM | Marshall CODE 25•

First one is the longer scale guitar, whichever that is.

The tele it is then

2
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
JaffabornTakamine EF508KC•

1 335

2 tele

2
echoes310Ernie Ball Music Man•

1 - Tele

2 - 335

The second one definitely sounded warmer to me, but way closer than I expected

2