Looking for feedback on a product I made originally as a tool for myself. What do you guys think?
crimpwerks.com
crimpwerks.comPosted Jan 12, 2017, 6:32 PM UTC
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crimpwerks.comIt looks like a good product that I'd consider using. At first I thought it was meant to do body weight exercises which would be a good way to do damage to you fingers, I didn't realize it was a resistance band.
I built a training product myself and I'd like to get it mass produced, how did you start off finding a manufacturer and everything?
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For the metal plates, I used mfg.com and found a shop in Wisconsin (the prototypes I made in my garage using a cnc bench mill.) Everything else I still source and make myself! That will have to change if this ever takes off, however. The bungee cords are fairly labor intensive as it turns out.
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They look like a cool product - one thing I would strongly consider adding is some padding or rubber around the outside of the metal. They are going to get let go of on occasion and having a shooting metal plate at your wall is going to suck.
Also, consider packaging it with a door anchor like a lot of resistance bands do.
The price is pretty high as well considering you can buy an entire hangboard for the same price. If it were the same price as rock rings or something, I might give it a try.
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So you feel a $29.95 price point is more reasonable? That would be tough as these a quite a bit more complex and expensive to manufacture than rock rings (which is mostly pouring urethane into a mold and running a cordelette though.) However, I would argue these have quite a bit more utility than rock rings, considering all the orientations you can use it in.
Was the video helpful at all?
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Even $34.99 would be reasonable. $59.95 (unless $49 is the real price, not on sale) is extremely high for what they are.
I understand they take a lot of work to make - powder coated, rounded corners and filleted edges, mill work, etc. - but I just think at that price point I would just ask my gym to pick up a couple sets instead of buying one for myself.
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TBH I'd think this would be risky. If the finger slips, which looks easy to do, the sudden deload on the tendons/pulleys would be a higher risk of injury.
Also, I'm not a fan of resistance bands for this kind of exercise, due to the way that tension increases through the range of motion and isn't constant. Seems very difficult to measure and control over time.
What I don't understand is why someone with that many shoulder issues, that they couldn't hang board, would be climbing at all.
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My buddy got me one for the holidays and I love it! I use it mainly as part of my warmup before training on my hangboard at home and generally just mess around with it when I'm sitting around the house.
I do feel like it's kind of a single-function product though, if you sent a sheet of workouts you can do with it along with the product I think that would help a lot! Right now I basically just vary the number of fingers I use or how hard I'm pulling to try to change things up.
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I'm glad you love it!
You are exactly correct, I do need to send with it a workout sheet of sorts. In fact, I'm working on just that on the website. I have a couple of cards that I'm planning on sending with the product, but the box is too small to fit them, so I haven't quite worked that out yet.
In any event, they can be found on this work-in-progress page: https://www.crimpwerks.com/pages/workout-ideas
They roughly correspond to the exercises demonstrated in the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAniijD9q9U) which I did last weekend. I'm hoping this will give a much better idea of the ways that one can use them (though I'm sure there are many more.)
Personally I find the one where you lean back at an angle and hold as long as you can (#3) to be the most challenging and constructive way to build crimp finger strength.
Please feel free to give any feedback! I would love to hear it!
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I like it! Keep up the good work man, I think it can take off if you iron out your kinks. Very solid idea.
• Price. The "owl" crimps are $7 a piece, that's great if you have good margins. But that means $36 for two metal plates and a bungee?? You mentioned that you got a shop in wisco and then you source everything else yourself. I would find a manufacturer that already builds and assemblies equipment with similar materials, they'll have retailers giving them bungee by the spool, carabiners by the pallet, etc. That should help cut your cost while your sales volume is low. (maybe gym equipment manufacturing is where you wanna start) • I travel for work a decent amount and these would be easy to set up in a hotel. I would definitely be a customer for the 30-35 dollar range.
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I hear you on price. But to be perfectly precise, that's for two laser cut, drilled and tapped, and powder coated 6061 aluminum plates (not cheap), 4 feet of high quality bungee (I order 18 spools at a time), 2 carabiners (I order 1000 at a time), and all the screws, hog rings, and shrink tubing that puts it all together, not to mention the cost of labor to make it all (which is currently "free" because I do it all!) Add to that the box, packaging, stickers, etc. and factor in the cut distributors and retailers would want (50%+), cost in tooling and overhead (insurance, web development time, patents, etc) and man there's not a lot left at the end of the day.
Trust me, I cost this thing out to the penny. The sad reality is that it is very hard to get things manufactured in the USA at a cost that supports the price point people are expecting to pay. I call it the China effect - we're all very spoiled by cheap goods from China. Truth is it's very hard to get anything made in the USA and have it priced for wholesale at a retail price point. It can be done, but it's really tight. Hence I'm trying to defend the price point as much as possible. At $30-$35 there's no way I could make it here.
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Interesting idea. Color me intrigued but highly skeptical. I'd rather hangboard with a pulley offsetting my weight than use something like this with nebulous resistance. Could be cool to hang plates off of, instead of using bands. That way you'd have a concrete way of tracking your progress and you could train your fingers without hanging off your shoulders, which seems safer.
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As for being skeptical, is it because you don't think the bungee resistance would be enough to be useful?
The climber I used in the video is a 5.13 machine and he got quite pumped by the force exerted by the bungee (which will support 400lbs according to the manufacture.)
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No that's not the issue at all. And getting pumped in a finger workout isn't even desirable for strength adaptations.
It's more an issue of being able to fine tune it to the proper load where you're not getting a dangerous amount, or too little resistance. Bungees aren't good for measured effort. There's no way to say "OK, this is the the resistance I used in my last workout, so now I'll do the same or improve upon it." I'd also be concerned about it snapping away if I started to slip and suddenly unloading all my fingers, which never feels good.
I guess it could be good to use in a hotel room, or for someone with no way to hang a portable campus rung off something.
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I really like this idea. Judging by the pictures though, you may want to work on your open hand crimp strength ;)
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I'm not actually the guy in the pictures and video. He's a much stronger and better climber than I am! But I'll pass it along :)
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You should send some samples to some larger gyms around the country to allow people to try them and provide feedback.
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Already in the works!
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Interesting product idea. Might want to target it at injury rehab market. Lots of non climber insurance money there. If you can turn a profit at 29.99 I'd start there and slowly jack the price up.
That web page is terrible on mobile. You have to scroll forever to get to the bottom.
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Yeah the web site is a work in progress. I've never really done one before. But it will get there in time.
At $29.99 I'd have to go to China, which I'm trying to avoid.
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It isn't clear to me if the colors are just colors or different sizes or resistances?
The door hinge idea is neat. I'd give some thought to how you could use this without anything to attach it to though. Like post some workouts a traveler could do in a hotel room or warmups you could do at a crag with no warmups...maybe by looping the band around your feet?
Also the folks over at r/climbharder are fans of "no hang" devices like this, the gripster etc. Could go ask them.
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Funny thing is, because of my job I spend half my life in a hotel room, and this is why I came up with the idea to begin with! I was getting frustrated that I couldn't spend enough time at the climbing gym or crag to keep my finger strength up to pace, so I wanted something I could throw in my suitcase and take with me that addresses just finger strength training. I literally made prototypes in my garage using spare plates of metal, bungee cord from the hardware store, and holds that I made using silicone mold and urethane material from the art store after hand shaping the foam master.
And I found that, aside from taking them to the hotel gym in the event there is a cable weight machine I can use, the hotel room bathroom door makes a perfect platform from which to anchor them! The three hinges are at three ideal levels: top hinge to do pull-down like exercises, bottom hinge to do pull-up-from-below (bicep curl and upright row type exercises) and most interestingly, the middle hinge is great for using it sideways for oblique and core-type exercises. In fact, the routine of the guy in my website video is a direct result of all those exercises I discovered just using the bathroom door hinges of my hotel room.
I became interested in making it into a product when my fellow climber friends told me they thought it was a really good idea and that I should try to market it.
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And to answer your question, its just different colors. The holds are the same size and shape, and bungee cords are all the same strength.
I figured a little visual interest couldn't hurt. Plus I couldn't decide what color I liked best. I have a box of like 200 prototype holds of different colors!
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I personally wouldn't even consider using this. If my one of my fingers fails I don't want the resistance to shock load my other fingers or fly around. A must safer system imo is just to hangboard with your harness attached to a redirect pulley to reduce/add weight so that you can let go at any time. This can be done at the cost of just a single bolt and carabiners.
Honestly, The ONLY real upside your product has is that it mobile. But if I'm traveling I should be at the crag already or I have more important things to be doing.
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Well I'm not entirely sure what you mean by having a finger fail, but I've not experienced anything that would remotely make me concerned about this. One of the nice features of the bungee is that is has continuously variable resistance as a function of how far it is stretched. If there is even the slightest suspicion of overloading a finger, you merely have to back off a few millimeters and the tension is reduced.
The harness with a redirect pully (e.g. assisted pull-ups) is certainly doable, indeed there are many ways to skin a cat, as they say. But one of the goals of this product, as you note, is that it be portable, which obviously the pully-hangboard scheme would not be. So it just depends on what your needs and wants are.
I would argue that the multitude of directions and orientations you could use this product, with the bungee anchored at different heights, gives a far wider variation of isometric strength training than hangboards. There are a full range of ways you can engage various muscle groups that can't be done at all on hang-type devices. This is something I tried to emphasize in the video. However, if that is does not interest you, then I could see how the product would not interest you.
Still, I suspect you might change your mind if you tried it!
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You were asking for feedback. I just gave you my point of view. I know people will be interested in your device and people will buy it but from an engineer's POV it doesn't make much sense to me. A far as a finger failure. I haven't used your device but say you have a known bad finger you want to rest. On a hangboard it would be easy to use a rung without it or if I have a bad finger and I try too hard by acciendent what is the natural reaction with your device? with a hangboard I would simply let go and all resistance would immediately stop without having to deload the tension. It's simple & I don't have to think about it. I don't like having to focus when working out. I just want to put some music on and go mindlessly.
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I do appreciate that. I think I replied to your post via PM by not realizing is was a post in this thread. As I was saying, I think your objection is definitely something I need to think about. Others have expressed similar concerns so it's quite clear to me I need to give them more consideration than I have been. I've not tried the method you speak of but I can see how there are benefits.
From a selfish standpoint, I actually came up with the idea and based the design around the concept that I could throw it in a suitcase and take it with me when I travel for work (which is often.) So the feature of portability was high up on the design criterion. Still, there are tradeoffs one must make from a design standpoint in consideration of features, and it's hard to tell when my priorities as a user will align with those of others.
So feedback like yours is very valuable, and gives me a context to evaluate my design decisions. Thank you for that.
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Perhaps more than anything it makes an impact on who you need to market to.
I'm not a physical therapist but I would assume they would prefer to have a more perm setup.
That being said. Consumers buy shit they don't need everyday. I would perhaps also be wary of making too many promises for your own liability purposes but I'm an engineer not a business man so I'm not sure how that works.
I'd also repeat a common theme that a majority of climbers would be better off just climbing more instead of ANY outside training.
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If you want to sell this i would suggest you have this redesigned for that purpose. If all the user cares about is the form of the handle you could jist as well cast it in resin or abs plastic. Aluminum and powdered is commendable and sturdy but too pricey. You can still do that as a signature edition. Swappable (screw on plates) might be cool there. From a training and medical perspective i like them. I would not add straps just 6-8mm boreholes to add your own. Would buy plastic version for 15-25 (compared with gripmasters), 35-40 for pro/gym/signature.. How about kickstarter?
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I definitely thought about that, and the decision to start with an aluminum based plate was mostly based on having the capability to swap out the crimp hold for holds of other types and shapes (i.e. slopers and pincher, etc.) This is not something I have yet addressed on the website but it has always been part of the master plan. Also, there is a 11mm hole in the middle beneath each hold that would allow you to attach a third party hold of your choosing with a 10mm or 3/8" bolt and nut (another feature I don't mention...)
Also, the bungee assembly has turned out to be more complex and labor intensive that I originally thought, so there's room for improvement there as well.
However, it is becoming evident that price point is a factor here, so I may have to rethink design considerations accordingly.
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Yeah, I think that may be the way to go. FWIW I am a designer and maker also and I feel your struggle for getting the cost down. Honestly I'm impressed with the quality at the price point you're offering already so kudos to your progress so far. You've probably covered all of these bases but I'm going to write out some thoughts just in case cause I think it's a great product and I want you to succeed making it here. Are you sure about laser cutting vs having the blanks water jetted? Such a simple form in alum. could be super quick for a waterjet, seems to me that the milling is the bigger time suck here. I know that weight is a big concern for you, so it makes sense that you want the aluminum, but perhaps you could save by using steel for the lower price point and then selling the aluminum (maybe add some holes or cutouts for visual effect) as a travel/premium version? Another thought that struck me which you've probably considered is that if you made a square hold and plate you could have 4 holds built into the one design. Wouldn't change your cost much but adds significant value (maybe). I don't know how others feel about the powdercoating but personally I don't think it would look any worse or less professional if the aluminum and biners were uncoated. However you decide to proceed, good luck. I love the idea and am a future customer for sure. Edit: Another thought, if you made the plate out of g10 or phenolic laminate sheet, it could be filleted or chamfered on a router table instead of requiring a mill.
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I priced both, and the laser cutting actually came in a little cheaper. Apparently abrasive used in water jet cutting isn't cheap. The laser also has the advantage of having a bit tighter tolerances. The drawback, however, is the dross that it generates.
I did consider the square hold design, but I though that would be too big for what I was trying to do. Plus, I'm not really sure how much value having four different hold surfaces would add. As it is, the current design gives you two size options (15mm and 10mm) though you have to unscrew and flip the hold around to change it.
My prototypes were bare aluminum, and they didn't look bad. The powder coating does make quite a bit better I think, and in volume really doesn't add a huge cost.
I'll have to look into your alternative material suggestions. I've not heard of g10 or phenolic laminate sheet. Though if I were to go for a totally on-metal solution, I would just look at molding the whole thing as one piece.
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This seems like a great utensil for warming/staying warm up at the crag when you have a lack of warmups near your project. A couple things that came to mind: It would be cool to have a way to shorten the bungee/or switch it with a shorter one (think 4 inches), so you could just pull your hands away from each other and create tension like that (for warming up). Another unrelated thought, if you offered different size crimps with each set or for sale individually, it would be a great way to work down in hold size without having to buy a complete new set each time (maybe you're already planning this)
Cheers and good luck, I feel your made in America pain, but keep with it!
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I think using it to warm up at the crag is a very good application. I have done so by just clipping it into the first bolt (assume it's not insanely high) and working my fingers for about 10 minutes before I jump on the rocks. Definitely makes for a better first climb!
At some point I will be making and offering different sizes and shapes of holds. However, the crimp that I currently make it with actually has 2 sides: a 15mm side (default) and the 10mm edge on the other side. With a 5mm hex wrench (which is a pretty standard size on bicycle wrench sets) you can unscrew the bolts, flip the hold around, and use the 10mm smaller edge on the other side. But I also think there is good potential for sloper and pincher shaped holds in the future.
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Maybe have the grips go throgh a couple of wire tracks you can weight with your feet or tie down around the bottom of a door or something so it slides along a linear plane and doesn't bounce up or away if you lose your grip. That obviously limits the device to only a couple of workouts though, I'm not sure how you cover the whole range.
Seems interesting though.
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Steel would not be much cheaper it has to be painted somehow. Eloxed aluminum is still pricey. The cheapest way probably is molded or extruded plastic with sufficient thickness. A 3d printer could help prototyping that. Why is attaching the bungee so hard, wouldn't it be possible to get a cord with a swage that fits into some recess you can lock off with the plates? Worst case a hole and some d rings?
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It's actually not hard, I just don't (yet) have the right equipment. I need a pneumatic hog ringer to do what I am doing manually, but they are quite pricey. As I continue to get more volume, I can justify more capital expenditures that will speed up the bungee fabrication process.
I did think of steel, but since portability and hence weight is important (I think) I decided to go with Al. There may be a small difference in cost going with steel, but overall I don't think that savings would be justified by the weight compromise. But I may re-evaluate that as time goes on.
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Would you sell just the grip/plate as a single and without the bungee?
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Yes I would. PM me if you're interested, I'll setup something up.
I'll probably add this at some point as a standard offering.
Edit: Available now, at the bottom.
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https://youtu.be/KvEhrlN0rsI?t=155
Video with pulley system used at the end I had mentioned previously.
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Some people suggested padding but watching the video I would suggest some simple wrist straps or similar for them. Looks terrifying if you grip goes and you have metal ends on tension flying around, especially with other people around.
This is true, and it has been brought to my attention before (plus it's fairly self evident.)
I have found that it is usually pretty clear when your fingers are about to "give", and then it's just a matter of releasing pressure off the bungee (thereby lowering the force) until they feel solid again. I find that one advantage of the bungee, being able to vary the resistance just by changing the length you extend it. That way you can "train to exhaustion" much longer, by progressively shortening the bungee extension and decreasing resistance as your muscles fatigue and fingers weaken. A bit like decreasing the weight at the gym to get "a few more reps in" at the end of a set, but with the benefit of being continuously variable. It's quite a nice feature, actually!
Having said that, this is an issue I'll probably have to address at some point...