Source
r/Trackdays•
xaarman

Recommendations for a Track Bike

Hoping to get some insight on this:

MY first bike was a SV650, AK-20s, Penske, upgraded brakes etc. I had thousands of miles on it and was a solid middle B group rider. For example, at Hallett I was doing 1:35s.

After a couple years, since it was the only bike I had tracked, I was getting an itch for something new... so I sold it and bought an ex CMRA 07 CBR600RR fully decked out. That was in 2014.

I've been doing track days off and on since then (missed entire 2015) and I just can't get comfortable on the bike. The seating position "on top" vs the "in" that the SV was, the power band is terrible, it doesn't want to turn... in fact, the only thing I do like about it are the brakes. I've had other people ride it and they tell me its set up incredibly well, I just don't like it and can't get comfortable on it. At Hallett, the best I could manage was a whopping 1:50+.

Both bikes were rebuilt and set up for my weight by RaceWorx in Dallas, the CMRA standard for suspension.

So I'm going to slap a for sale sign on it and use it until someone buys it... but I can't figure out what to replace it with. I miss the SV, I miss how comfortable I was on it, passing people on the outside of turns, and could do whatever I want. I don't have that feeling anymore and it's really affecting my confidence.

So what bike is next? I am looking at Ducati 899/959s because they're a twin, but having mental blocks about a Panigale track bike. I don't want a liter bike because tire cost/warmers/that whole jazz. I am considering the 2013+ 636s, but they're still an i4 and only marginal midrange. I'd like to try a 2013+ 675R but I've never found one around me and can't find anyone really recommends them. GSXR-750s seem to be in the middle, and are a possibility.

All in all, I'm at a loss. Do I go back to an SV? Are the 899/959s good track bikes? Do I suck it up and spend another season on the CBR? Any input is appreciated.

Posted Apr 10, 2017, 4:40 AM UTC · edited

417
yutugh•

the power band is terrible, it doesn't want to turn...

Sounds like the bike is fucked up gearing wise or engine wise and geometry wise. If you are decent enough on an SV, there is no way you should be slower on a 600cc bike.

The beauty of modern sportbikes is that they are infinitely adjustable, and you can tailor it to your riding style.

The first thing I would do is make sure its running correctly, take it to a dyno shop and have them do a dyno run.

Then I would look at the gearing. If you find yourself in low-mid rpm range coming out of corners, you probably need to go down in the teeth on the front and/or up in the rear.

If the bike doesn't want to turn, it a geometry issue. It could be set up for hard braking while you are used to having corner speed. First make sure that you steering head bearings are in good shape. Secondly, jack up the rear ride height a few millimeters and see if the bike turns better. If it does, keep on doing this until you get it to a sweet spot. If it gets worse, that means that your front spring rates are too soft and the front end is collapsing, shortening the wheel base and putting too much weight on the front wheel.

If you feel like you are running out of lean angle, raise the front and the rear of the bike.

In my experience of tuning race bikes, I haven't come across one yet that was impossible to set up for the rider.

10
xaarmanOP•

I have never done geometry adjustments, but there's a local track suspension specialist. I will easily trade turn in speed at the sacrifice of braking. Definitely not running out of lean angle, I have to go faster for that again, lol.

(I miss knee scraping...)

1
yutugh•

Other thing is tires. Different types can change how the bike behaves. I suggest pirelli supercorsas sc1s.

2
jwhite2386•

Get that geometry straight. My CBR has quite a bit of rear height added and forks dropped a little. Hondas tend to be really stable stock, trying to get it neutral to slightly unstable takes some adjusting. I try to get my bikes to be neutral mid corner to where I can basically let go and it will keep tracking. A CBR with stock geometry will try to stand up mid corner.

Gearing is also key, I have several different front and rear sprockets I change out depending on how tight the track is. -1/+2 for tighter tracks and stock/+2 for more open tracks is a good start. Stock gearing is pretty tall and I use it for only really open tracks. You'll know the gearing is about right when you just hit the top of 6th on the front straight before needing to brake (given it has a long enough one...some don't).

1
ViperThreat•

The seating position "on top" vs the "in" that the SV was.

SV's are a standard, so supersports are by nature more aggressive - they aren't nearly as comfortable, and they might take some time to get used to if you are really used to your SV, but they ARE definitely better setup for the track. You should be talking to a trackday instructor and asking about your riding position and form - more likely than not it's a problem with form.

Still - if you want that "in" feel, GSXRs have the lowest seat height in the supersport cagegory, so they are going to be the closest to that.

the power band is terrible

I've found Honda's to be a bit on the slower side of the supersport class, but they are by no means "terrible" as you put it - Keep those things in high revs and they should have absolutely no problem smashing on a SV650 in the straights.

it doesn't want to turn

I can't really help you there, I assume it's just because it's probably a heavier and longer bike than your SV - it's definitely a different riding style, so you may need some time to adjust.

I am looking at Ducati 899

When it comes to track bikes - I subscribe to two philosophies: Cheap & Easy to fix. Ducati's don't really fall in any of those buckets. They are VERY pretty and quite fast, but I'm a much faster rider if I'm not thinking about how much my fairing costs when i dive into turn 3.

I don't want a liter bike because tire cost/warmers/that whole jazz.

My 1k does wear tires a bit quicker than my friends 600s, but it's not THAT big a difference, and honestly the tire warmers make my earlier laps far more confident, so they were a worthy investment

I am considering the 2013+ 636s, but they're still an i4 and only marginal midrange. I'd like to try a 2013+ 675R

I think I'm starting to put this together - I think what you're main problem here is that you're trying to treat an inline-4 bike like a twin - you want strong bottom end, but i4s are all about high revs.

In the example you provided here: 636 vs 675, the 636 is absolutely the faster bike - the 675 isn't a bad bike by any measure, but there's nearly a 30hp difference there. Midrange or not, that 636 is going to absolutely walk on the 675 in the straights.

All in all, I'm at a loss

I genuinely think you need to attend another track day and sit down with an instructor and go over the issues you're having with the bike. I think that you got so used to how your SV rode that you may have learned some bad habits, or built muscle-memory that's going to be hard to break. (what feels different must be wrong sorta thing)

You CAN go back to an SV, if it's what you are comfortable with and enjoy riding, then there's nothing wrong with that - BUT, if you really want to push your limits and go faster, you're not going to get there on a 650 twin.

9
xaarmanOP•

I think that last part hits it, and I have some bad habits/muscle memory from the SV and I am not liking the i4 setup. The general mindset around "learn to go fast on a slower bike and when you finally upgrade you'll be blazing" and I have the polar opposite of that. It's a major confidence blow.

2
steve_the_woodsman•

My Ducati Monster is like your old SV in a lot of ways. I'm way faster on it than my friends are on their 600s and even 1000s (except straights). When I hop on their bikes I can tell they're faster bikes, but I'm not faster on them. I'm use to keeping the my Monster at 7k RPMs for drive out of the corners, but on i4s it has to be 11-13k.

As others have suggested, a track session with an instructor would help a lot. Have you also considered a Ducati 848? Low and mid range like you're wanting, top end like an i4.

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xaarmanOP•

I'm use to keeping the my Monster at 7k RPMs for drive out of the corners, but on i4s it has to be 11-13k.

So much shifting!

I've thought about 848s, but everything I've heard says they're awful ergos, and a lot of work to ride. I'm not opposed to them, just haven't really looked into them because I never hear anything positive.

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myorangecrayonCMRA #843•

Most all supersport bikes you're going to sit "on" it rather than "in" it. As someone that owns an 899 track bike, I can tell you you will hate it. The maintenance is stratospherically expensive compared to an SV (something else I've owned in the past) and the superquadro engine is very rambunctious. It's a physical ride, and can be hard to turn in... it's a handful to ride at a brisk pace, but once you really get REALLY fast then it all starts making sense. It is crazy uncomfortable as well. All that being said, I love mine. I push it, and it pushes back.

With 600s they need to stay at the very top of the rev range, so you always have to be in the right gear... the sv probably made you lazy, you could torque your way out of the wrong gear. Very few supersports can do that, including the 899... there is very little midrange, it's either making power or it's not. I suggest going back to an SV and getting more seat time, or just keep the cbr and invest in seat time. CBRs tend to be very easy to ride compared to most everything else l.

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xaarmanOP•

I've always loved the sounds of twins.... i4s sound like a swarm of bees that just got done drinking Redbull. The track organization is ran by Ducati Omaha so I'm surrounded by Ducatis all day. The SV probably did make me lazy with it's torque.... I suppose I want that laziness back. How does the midrange on the 899 compare to an i4?

Seat time will be the same regardless of bike, really the only hold back is my (military) deployment schedule, which is regular and often.

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myorangecrayonCMRA #843•

The midrange on the 899 is surprisingly poor - the engine is so oversquare that it rides a lot like a 600, just with more power. They bumped the displacement in the new ones to fix that, but you still have to shift a lot to stay in the rev range. It also chews through tires like crazy - I can get one trackday out of a Pirelli sc2 rear.

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xaarmanOP•

Well that's ...amazingly disappointing. I suppose if I need to go back to the Standard type bikes, there's the new Triumph 765...

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myorangecrayonCMRA #843•

Much like with reviews on the internet, it's just a matter of personal preference. I suggest test riding a Duc, all the things that bother me may end up being the reasons you love it. I loved the thing for the first 6 months or so, all those little niggles just start wearing on you.

1
thedogs273•

I feel like I'm in a pretty similar situation to you. I started on an 03' SV650 that I built up myself. In 2014 I was pretty comfortable and running A group times on the SV.

Last year, the engine seized and I decided it wasn't worth rebuilding. Sold the frame complete with the seized engine and bought a track setup R6. I pretty quickly found that the bike's geometry didn't really suit my riding style and my times dropped dramatically.

Since then, I've been working to adjust my riding style to suit the bike and have found some improvements. Bit by bit, I'm making changes and trying new things. The biggest change for me has been upper body position. I found that I can no longer just hang off the side of the bike like I used to, I really have to turn my torso and look into the corner, pointing my chest in the direction that I'm traveling. The SV's high center of gravity allowed me to hang off the side without leaning out as much. The way I'm riding is a lot more physically demanding.

Last day out, I finally got comfortable enough to lean the bike in far enough to use my knee as a feeler. Like others have said, it's not the bike, it's the habits you've built up riding that SV. It's a great bike to learn on, but it rides pretty differently from everything out there because its a standard.

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xaarmanOP•

There, this. I agree with everything you said here. I'm never going to do any kind of racing, so I want the bike that's the most fun, and I'm learning it's not a crotch rocket. Oh well.

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LtDanHasLegsRacer EX•

I would suggest going back to the SV. Get a race-ready one and ride it. It sounds like that's what you actually want. I'm racing an SV right now, and it's killer. When I do trackdays outside of race practice days, I'm one of the fastest in A group. There's reason you couldn't run the SV as fast as anything at a trackday.

Get a race-ready one, and it'll probably still be an upgrade from your older street SV.

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xaarmanOP•

Yeah, I'm going to keep my eyes out for one now... or another standard bike. How frustrating.

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