r/Guitar•
squarefrog

[QUESTION] Relationship between truss rod, bridge height and action

QUESTION

I'm trying to understand the relationship between truss rod, bridge height, nut height and action better. The guitar in question has a 0 fret, so that takes the nut out for now.

The maker recommends a setup of 0.010" relief (measured at the 12th fret with capo on 1st, holding 24th), with 2mm string height on low E, 1.5mm height on high E.

This seems to be a pretty common starting point for most guitars. I struggle with legato with this setup and wanted to drop it a fraction. In this case do I want to reduce relief, string height, or combination of both?

I tried straightening out a little, and very slightly reducing string height. This feels much more playable to me, however I get small fret buzz in the middle of the neck 7th - 10th frets across all strings. I can live with it for now, but it definitely does seem to hurt the sustain.

What would be be your advice for lowering the action from the factory suggested settings?

Edit: straightened the neck, and some of the frets aren't level. So it's going to have to go to the luthier to level and setup. Appreciate all the replies!

Posted Apr 26, 2017, 8:00 AM UTC · edited

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MrFingersEUresident bassist | knows a thing or two about vintage Fenders.•

Action & bridge heights are directly correlated, truss rod-usage only sideways. The trussrod dials in the relief (curvature) of the neck, necessary for the string to vibrate freely without slamming into the frets creating buzz. There are "manufacturers opinions" regarding how much relief there should be, but in the end it boils down to your personal preference, how you play and what strings you use. If you use heavy strings and hit them like a gorilla on steroids, you're going to need a bit more relief than when you play with very light strings and stroke them with a feathery touch.

Action & bridge height are directly correlated. Since the bridge sits twice as far from the nut as the 12th fret, you can use trigonometry to get in the right ballpark. For example, with the relief already dialed in to your preference, if you have an action of X mm at the 12th fret, and you want to lower it to X-Y mm, you have to lower the bridge 2Y (so if you want one mm closer at the 12th fret, it means lowering it 2mm at the bridge).

Also a factor that is often overlooked is the fretboard radius. A curved fretboard requires a bit higher action, to offset the fact that the fretboard curves towards the string (you may have an action of 2mm directly underneath the string, but that can become 1.8mm when you measure a bit closer towards the middle of the fretboard). The flatter the radius, the lower you can make your action without buzzing.

In your situation, a relief of 0.010" (0.25mm in non-retarded units from the top of my head) is a good starting point. A little fretbuzz doesn't hurt (especially when playing electric, and it doesn't sound through the amplifier). What I would do is revert the straightening of the neck back to 0.010", and lower the saddles a bit. That should give you a lower action without buzzing at the 7-10 position. For sustain: use heavier strings. Heavier strings have more mass, more mass dampens slower, thus increases sustain.

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squarefrogOPStrandberg Boden OS 6, LTD EC1000•

Thanks for the detailed reply, really appreciated it.

That all makes sense, I have a light to medium touch, and I'm on 10-46, with the fanned frets this is about the ideal tension for me, I'll try what you suggested.

I try to leave a day between truss rod tweaks (never do more than 1/4 a day anyway), just in case so I'll give it a bash after work.

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gastonstegall•

Thanks. I'm going to save this for future reference, just in case!!!

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arsenalca•

If you use heavy strings and hit them like a gorilla on steroids, you're going to need a bit more relief than when you play with very light strings and stroke them with a feathery touch.

True, but all other things being equal, heavier strings require less neck relief.

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chinstrap•

the buzz being local to the 7th -10th frets suggests to me that you do need some more neck relief

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nakee03Stratocaster•

If you want low action as possible you should have a flat neck (little to no relief) and frets should properly be leveled.

 

Its hard to say what causes buzz in a guitar really, a basic rule of thumb is lower frets are due to having a tight truss rod and higher fret buzz is because of low saddle height but no matter how "perfect" you setup your truss rod and saddle height it won't matter if you're frets are not properly leveled. This is most apparent when you go very low action.

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squarefrogOPStrandberg Boden OS 6, LTD EC1000•

Yeah that makes sense. I had a guitar set up by a luthier who levelled the frets and tha action on that is insanely low without any buzz.

Just trying to avoid taking this one to him as I'm still in the honeymoon period so being without it for a week or two is not what I want!

I do have a good fret rocker from crimson guitars so I could check and see what shape the frets are in and go from there.

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KrexodusLTD EC / Jackson King V•

Good info in here already. I'm a bit of a shred guy myself, when I set up my guitar, I gradually tighten the truss rod and retune, until there is no relief. Then I back it up just a hair. This is a good way to get a very flat neck.

Similar idea for bridge height; lower it bit by bit. Retune and play around after each time. When problems arise, back it up a notch. My live guitars usually have just under 1mm action.

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squarefrogOPStrandberg Boden OS 6, LTD EC1000•

So your relief is barely visible? Like cigarette paper small or small enough that you have to rely on the sound from tapping the string on the fret to check?

I think the disadvantage of the strandbergs bridge is that each half turn of the saddle screw changes the height by 0.25mm, so you can't get any finer than that. The advantage of that is its quite easy to be methodical about changes!

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KrexodusLTD EC / Jackson King V•

Yes, ideally I will struggle to visibly see the relief.

I'm not familiar with strandbergs bridge, it seems like you mean that only half turns (and thus .25mm) adjustments are possible at all?

You could still try the method out, below 1.5 mm on the bass side is still pretty low.

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squarefrogOPStrandberg Boden OS 6, LTD EC1000•

Yes thats right. The string sits on the top of the screw so only half turns are possible. Still that gives you a fair amount of movement.

I don't think my EC1000 is lower than 1.5mm on the bass and I'm happy with that so I think that would still work.

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KrexodusLTD EC / Jackson King V•

In the end, the best set up is the one you're comfortable with ;)

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pssychesun•

It all relates to the whole of the guitar setup but certain things are done for certain reasons/outcome.

Adjust the truss rod ONLY to set the desired neck relief. Forget the action and everything else. Only think of the truss rod in terms of setting the neck relief.

Will adjusting it affect the overall action? Yes, but that is not why you adjust a truss rod. Once the rod is adjusted as desired, then pay attention to the bridge and nut height. I'll put the bridge action where I want it, then the nut if needed. The reasoning is that the bridge is capable of the bigger range. Then I address the nut action, then retweak the bridge if needed. Unless the nut is obviously way out, then I might start on the nut if the bridge is at least in the ballpark.

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squarefrogOPStrandberg Boden OS 6, LTD EC1000•

I suppose this is an area where I'll only understand with experience. I don't really know my desired neck relief. On my other guitar theres barely any and I enjoy playing that.

So lets say I want to attempt to duplicate that setup on this guitar. First thing I do is set the relief to a small amount. Then retune. Now play chromatically up and down the neck to find problem areas. If I get buzz, the bridge needs raising.

If the raised bridge becomes unacceptable, I presume theres at least one high fret that needs levelling?

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pssychesun•

The range between acceptable neck reliefs is pretty small, too much outside of that range creates other problems so, yes, start somewhere in that range. Put the bridge where it needs to be for the desired action. Don't worry about the buzzing quite yet.

Now, if your neck relief is good and the action is the same as the other guitar you are duplicating, play up and down the neck looking for buzzes. If the buzzes are consistent, action is too low for the way you play/string gauge. If the buzz is localized to a broader area but not the whole neck, your neck relief might need tweaking. If you change the neck relief, readjust your action. If the buzz is very localized, say one or two frets/one of two strings you have fret issue (too high/too low/worn).

Bear in mind a couple things - duplicating the setup of one guitar to another only works well if they are similar in hardware/fretboard radius/construction, like a Strat style to another Strat style. Otherwise, you might have to tweak the specs a bit. Also, check, double check, triple check - I'll go back to the neck relief and action several times throughout the process, adjusting if needed. Also, retune retune retune, every tweak, retune.

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squarefrogOPStrandberg Boden OS 6, LTD EC1000•

I realise I wont be able to completely duplicate the other setup. One has a 13.7" fretboard radius, the other is 20" with fanned frets!

Good info about the buzz localisation. I do retune after each, and I'm being overly cautious by leaving a the neck to settle for a day after each truss tweak. The neck is carbon fibre reinforced so it probably doesn't matter, but I'm in no rush

1
pssychesun•

Nothing wrong with taking your time, a day is overkill though. Yeah, you picked something akin to trying to get your motorcycle to have the same mileage as your lifted truck, lol.

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jvin248•

.

Use a credit card edge across three frets at a time and see if the card rocks. Check all frets on all strings, use a sharpie on the top of the fret to mark high points you find. Do these match where you are getting buzzing (most likely)? A fret level will help a lot.

.

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squarefrogOPStrandberg Boden OS 6, LTD EC1000•

Thanks, I do have a fret rocker so I can check how well they were levelled. Thats my job for this weekend.

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Unstablemedic49Fender Gibson Dano•

I think very low action, strings touching the frets, sounds horrible and very thin, no sustain bc there's no room for the strings to vibrate. It may sound okay with heavy distortion, but clean it sounds like dog crap. Here's an example, you can hear how low his action is, that it's choking the sound of the strings.

[ low action ] ( https://youtu.be/-E49h1V12yI )

You need to take all the strings off and take a straight edge and put it on top of the fretboard. Tighten the truss rod all the way until the neck is dead straight then put the strings back on and adjust action and intonation. Fret buzz and how low you can go will depend greatly on the quality of the guitar. Usually the better quality instrument, better fret job and finish of the neck is done, which will give you lower action. Go slow and one step at a time, it's not difficult to do.

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squarefrogOPStrandberg Boden OS 6, LTD EC1000•

The best thing in that video was hitting the pinched harmonic in My Curse.. and nothing happens haha

Yeah that's solid advice, I've got a notched straight edge so I can straighten the neck then use a fret rocker to check for the high frets. Surely you'd want to do this with strings on though? Otherwise as soon as you string up the neck will bow?

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Unstablemedic49Fender Gibson Dano•

I'm mean that you could do either way, what I usually do is tighten up the truss rod all the way with the strings off and then go back a quarter of a turn of relief. This will give you some wiggle room when you put the strings back on to make your final adjustments. Or you could keep them on and do exactly as you said, but if you use the rocker and find you have a high spot in the frets that you wanna fix, you'll have to take the strings off anyways.

If you plan on looking for high frets too, I would take the strings off, straighten neck, fix any high frets, turn truss rod back a quarter, string up, final truss adjustment, action, then intonation.

Edit: the best way to set up a guitar is acoustically. Make it sound good without an amp plugged in and your guitar will sound even better once you plug it in.

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squarefrogOPStrandberg Boden OS 6, LTD EC1000•

Yeah this is good advice. I think if I have high frets I'll end up taking it to the luthier as they are stainless steel so might be tough to work on.

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