Source
r/zen•
Friend_Lord

Does "The Zone" relate to Zen?

Had an interesting experience on the tennis court a few months back that you guys might find intriguing. I was practicing serve returns while focusing on objects in the peripheral vision to improve my reflexes. It was something that I had seen described by some questionably reliable martial arts teachers as 'mushin'

http://timrosanelli.blogspot.com/2011/09/two-easy-steps-to-achieve-mushin-state.html

I'm not sure if it's actually 'mushin' but it did yield some interesting results.

Before returning every serve, I did the practice as described in the article, and discovered that my serve returns had improved dramatically. I was hitting killer shots on serves that normally would have flown right past me.

This was the deepest in "The Zone" that I had ever been up to that point. I was playing completely out of my mind. If you asked me my name I probably would have hesitated to answer. This was weird and to me begged the question:

"Who is it that hits the ball?"

So I guess my question for the Zen community is if "The Zone"-- playing out of your mind-- bears any relation to Zen? Does that article accurately describe 'mushin' practice? If not, what is 'mushin' really? And who the fuck is it that really hits the ball?

Posted Apr 28, 2017, 2:16 PM UTC · edited

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dec1phahHalfwitCollegeSnowflake•

A lot of people experience what people here call in a fancy way "satori" while doing sports. Concentrating on an physical activity is a good practice to diminish your stream of thoughts. That's the main reason why people think doing sports is actually relaxing while your body is working. Mind put to rest.

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Friend_LordOP•

Is the mind really at rest though? Like there are still decisions being made, I still use tactics and strategy, it just don't have any continous language associated to it. It seems like it's the train of thought that gets put to rest, but not the 'mind'-- whatever that is. What do you think?

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MizarsAsterism•

Is the mind really at rest though?

Apples to oranges. You're confused by his explanation because you're talking about 2 different definitions of the mind.

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dec1phahHalfwitCollegeSnowflake•

I used to do All-Mountain riding. Sure, you need to e.g. decide what trail to take. That's thinking. But the riding itself is intuitive. Or playing ball: thinking about the next move but executing intuitively.

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Friend_LordOP•

So, when you're bombing downhill and completely in The Zone, why is it that the body chooses to stay on the trail and keep its balance instead of riding into a tree stump? It seems like there's an intelligence there far more powerful than anything which can be put to words. That's what "The Zone" suggests to me, at least.

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dec1phahHalfwitCollegeSnowflake•

My crazy theory: you're not able to put thoughts between actions because you don't have the time for it. You're more or less in sync with mind and body. If that makes sense...

You've mentioned martial arts. I think that besides strength and stamina, the ability of keeping the duration between thought and movement as short as possible is what makes you a better fighter. Milliseconds make the difference.

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indiadamjones•

No, but that sounds like a great workout! I noticed those features from the article sometimes during extended cardio. Martial arts, represents a cult of antiquity modernized for profit. If you want to join a school, I would talk to several of the senior participants, and carefully evaluate based on cult guidelines. Tennis by far more healthy IMO and every bit as lethal if your enemy looks like this.

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Friend_LordOP•

I used to do martial arts, hated all the ritualism and cultism. Tennis is much more pure. I always say, tennis is closest you can get to beating the shit out of someone without ever actually touching them.

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indiadamjones•

10S NE1

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Friend_LordOP•

Walked 10 steps south, 1 step northeast. Am I supposed to dig now?

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sodaspopcorn•

the friend zone? haha

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Friend_LordOP•

aaaaaye. nice one

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sodaspopcorn•

thanks dad

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elbowbrunchPunch Flavor•

Get in the zone and ask these questions. I doubt they'll be relevant when you're in it though. Who knows!

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Friend_LordOP•

That is so damn true. I did. There were no questions. Zone is life.

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ewk•

No, Zone is a cognitive prioritizing state.

You can't ask questions in the Zone because you are an action zombie, just like Buddhists deep in prayer-meditation can't answer question in their meditation zombie state.

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Friend_LordOP•

Was using 'Zone is life' like 'ball iz lyfe', not to be taken seriously. Zone is a tool. It has its uses.

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elbowbrunchPunch Flavor•

Puts a spin on death when you're not in the Zone which is life doesn't it?

Followers of the Way, according to the understanding of the Ch'an school, death and life are successive. Students, you must be very thorough-going. - BCR

The definition of successive is happening one after another without any breaks, but hey what's that ocean about?

Just resting is like the great ocean accepting hundreds of streams, all absorbed into one flavor. Freely going ahead is like the great surging tides riding on the wind, all coming onto this shore together. -Yunmen

or for me my favorite

Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

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ewk•

No, the Zone isn't related to Zen at all.

You are using Japanese Buddhist terminology. Japanese "Zen Buddhism" isn't related to Zen at all, but some of their churches might recognize "the Zone" as the holy state they are trying to achieve.

Given that you didn't achieve this state through prayer-meditation, they might not agree that it is the same state though.

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Friend_LordOP•

Holy state my ass... If I'd call it anything it'd be the predatory state. Being the best supreme killer you can be at whatever task you're doing. Nothing holy about it, it's purely selfish.

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Nml5•

Yes but it's an attempt to make the experiencing structure merge with the body and it's not sustainable. The two can come within .000000001 of a nanometer from each other. So close yet so far.....and so they come apart again. Ive experienced the same thing on occasion. I'll draw a picture of what I mean

http://imgur.com/a/hOtwJ

The close way is blocked by an invisible wall.. you can see the other side. but you can't get through. not without leaving anything behind. You have to go back the other way. How you do that is not for anyone to describe to you or dictate

think of the circle as a rotation and you think the rotation is one way. that's what I was getting at. Like a clock

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ewk•

You are mistaken.

Zen Masters don't talk about being in the Zone at all, anywhere, in any text.

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Nml5•

Congratulations on reading a few books.

I didnt say it was important and i basically agree with you about "action zombie" but who knows if you just figured that out from reading my post first or not.

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Friend_LordOP•

What do you mean experiencing structure? I thought that the experiencing structure is the body. How can they be separate? Are you suggesting a 'soul' or 'spirit' or 'I' that exists separate from the body?

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Nml5•

It wants to be the body but it isn't. The continual push between inner and outer, trying to make the outer like the inner and the inner like the outer. Yes the sense of self exists separate from the body, it pushes it wherever it wants to go. That's why depersonalization feels so awful (because the difference seems so stark) and being "in the zone" feels so great (because the difference seems so small).

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Friend_LordOP•

Hmm, it seems to me like you're describing the 'self-discrepancy-gap'

"The self-discrepancy theory states that people compare themselves to internalized standards called "self-guides". These different representations of the self can be contradictory and result in emotional discomfort. Self-discrepancy is the gap between two of these self-representations."

What if one has no 'self-guide'? Can there even be a gap?

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Nml5•

I wasnt really talking about that but sure that's part of it, but I was only talking about the self's relationship to the body and trying to merge 1:1 with it.

And there is a gap, there's always a gap. There is no union possible.The way back sheds pieces as it goes.

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chintokkong•

Interesting post! I think there are similarities between 'the zone' and zen. A key difference however is that 'the zone' is dependent on the sport while zen happens in all activities. And why zen can happen in all activities is because there is at least an impressively powerful awakening to the fundamental nature.

The problem with 'the zone' is that the mind is attuned to the environment, it has trouble turning inward to realise itself. So there is no awakening. And that's why the state doesn't last. When a sportsman need to get into the zone again before competition, he/she has to spend much warm-up time cultivating it. Or if lucky, he/she gets into it halfway through the game.

Yup, who is hitting the tennis balls, haha! Try asking yourself that question non-stop while playing tennis. Something interesting might happen.

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RhinoNamedHippo•

My buddy asked this about waiting tables one time

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Friend_LordOP•

What's good gravedigger? haha. What do you think about it?

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RhinoNamedHippo•

I think I'm in the zone more often than when waiting tables. I don't even wait tables anymore!

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