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r/AdvancedRunning•
moongrey

USADA Report on Salazar and NOP

Elite Discussion

Flotrack just published what may be the document referred to by the New York Times in their recent article about the Nike Oregon Project and potential doping violations.

The NOP was intended to promote American distance running and compete on the world stage with more prominent distance running countries. While there are plenty of other groups across the country who have runners routinely succeeding without allegations of doping, the NOP has received a ton of publicity with their big-name athletes (Galen Rupp, Matt Centrowitz, Jordan Hasay, and Shannon Rowbury to name a few).

How do you think these allegations affect the perception or success of American distance running? Have you always been suspect of Salazar and the Nike Oregon Project?

Posted May 23, 2017, 6:07 PM UTC

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noodlethebear•

The New York Times and Times of London pieces did a pretty good job summing up this report and I really doubt anyone is going to take the time to read the 269 pages in the report and come to a different conclusion than what was already stated.

This isn't the 100 percent conclusive proof of doping by any means and speaks more to the questionable ethics of Dr. Brown and Alberto Salazar.

This probably won't change the minds of many observers of the sport, as NOP supporters will continue to say that this is either a witch hunt, what every elite athlete is doing, or not technically against anti-doping rules because of XYZ. Those on the other side will point at this as Salazar pushing the envelope and say that it indicates something bigger is going on. No one is going to see eye to eye on this anytime soon.

As for a perception of American distance running, it's hard to tell. Runners like Emma Coburn, Jenny Simpson, Evan Jager, Clayton Murphy and Paul Chelimo have had success and aren't tied into any of this. Most people who have their suspicions about American distance running have always pointed to Salazar's group as their reason why so I don't think this makes that any worse. If we saw names of athletes outside of NOP in the report, the perception of American distance running would take a much bigger hit.

The bigger perception issue in my mind is Mo Farah. The improvements he made upon joining NOP at his age were pretty large and set off a lot of alarms for fans of the sport. He's one of the biggest stars of the sport right now and if he gets busted for doping, that'll have a bigger impact on the worldwide perception of distance running in general.

Keep in mind that these aren't usually quick processes without a failed test. It took about 18 years from when rumors started about Lance Armstrong and Michele Ferrari until he confessed to doping in 2013. We're a long way from hearing the end of the NOP/AlSal story.

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Beck256'MERICA•

Mo Farah being busted would be the Lance Armstrong of T&F.

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noodlethebear•

I think it's a toss-up between him and Bolt with a slight edge to Bolt doping being the bigger story.

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blood_benderHalf (1:17) - Full (3:04) - Half (1:16) - 50K•

I'd give it to Bolt, at least for American news. If you picked out a random American on the street and asked them to name any three people at the Olympics in the last 12 years, I would place a hefty amount of money on 95% of answers having both Phelps and Bolt, and then one of the female gymnasts.

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Siawyn•

Bolt would be a much bigger story in the U.S. at least due to how famous he is. Even my mother knows who Bolt is. I asked her who Mo Farah was and she was like who?

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Beck256'MERICA•

True. I guess I was just thinking distance athletes.

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sloworfast9s slower than zebano.... *cries*•

Kind of, except that Lance was so insanely outspoken about not doping. Is Mo? I feel almost like Paula Radcliffe being busted would be the Lance Armstrong of T&F.

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Beck256'MERICA•

I posted this in another thread but I'll post it here, too...

Nothing much creepier than AlSal insisting on giving you a massage, IMO.

It would be crazy if Mo, Centro, and Rupp all have to give back their Olympic medals. 5 golds, 1 silver, 1 bronze.

"USADA believed in March 2016 that Rupp committed an anti-doping violation"

That sounds to me like they know he committed a violation. Why no punishment yet?

"USADA's investigation of Mr. Rupp's potential violation of sport anti-doping rules is continuing."

This sounds to me like they still have to verify he committed a violation. Kind of conflicting.

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moongreyOPSummer of the 10K•

Nothing much creepier than AlSal insisting on giving you a massage, IMO.

Yeah, I read that and got a weird vibe. Rupp and AlSal are close, so maybe it's not out of the norm? On the NOP's page for Rupp, they describe the relationship as such:

...the two were just as much athlete-coach, prodigy-mentor, and son-to-father

I think it's fair to be skeptical of USADA conclusions; I assume there are still on-going investigations and once they're completed, maybe we'll know more. Re: Olympic medals... yeah that'd be insane but ultimately up to WADA/IOC, right?

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jaylapecherun moar•

I'm sure NOP has a team of professionals trained in giving sports massages to their athletes. That level of 1-on-1 attention is odd.

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aewilliaMy hip abductors stole my half marathon•

To be fair, though, I think Rupp and Salazar have had an unusually close relationship since Rupp was in high school. There was barely a NOP to speak of before Rupp.

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Beck256'MERICA•

Man, I know they're close but like the article states - Nike has masseuses for a reason. Just weird.

And yes, I guess it would be up to the IOC and WADA. I do think if the USADA finds them guilty then I think the international bodies will follow suit.

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BMBGuitar14:57 5k || 30:57 10k•

I've been suspect of Salazar and NOP for several years now, and my suspicions keep growing to this day. In fact, my suspicions are so great now that in my mind, there is no way that they are not doping. They just need to be busted already. I don't care if people think it will be bad for the sport if our stars go down. Relatively speaking, distance running isn't the sport for fame and popularity as it is, so I don't think we have much to lose. We don't do the sport for those reasons. Busting those big names will just bring some more integrity to our sport, which is what it needs.

Where there's smoke, there's fire. There's way too much smoke with this group. It's not just a witch hunt.

Our sport is so corrupt. Jama Aden is caught with EPO with all of his best athletes at their training camp? Nothing comes out of it, because obviously that wasn't for the athletes. Ferguson Kiprotich's ('16 Olympic 800m finalist) coach gets caught posing as him for a drug test? Obviously not a sign of doping and not the athlete's fault.

I hate doping.

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blood_benderHalf (1:17) - Full (3:04) - Half (1:16) - 50K•

I don't necessarily disagree with you, saying that up front.

But, in this case, I also don't know if I agree with the smoke -> fire conclusion. AlSal could very well be producing a ton of smoke, because fire is illegal, but smoke isn't.

That analogy is falling apart lol. I'm just saying I'm not putting it past him to push the rules to their absolute limits, while still technically not breaking them.

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BMBGuitar14:57 5k || 30:57 10k•

If someone has to day "while still technically not breaking them", that tells me it's still unethical. In the situation of doping and performance enhancement, bending the rules is breaking the rules. Using unethical methods/substances to boost hormones up to the limits of legality is BS. I don't think Salazar would be trying to hide everything if he knew everything he did was ethical. If anyone says that what he does is ethical and he just hides it to get every edge on competition that he can, that's BS too.

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blood_benderHalf (1:17) - Full (3:04) - Half (1:16) - 50K•

I generally agree with this too. I don't think he's ethical, and I think he's probably breaking the spirit of the rules, but I'm on the side of not being convinced he's actually breaking them/doping, naively or not.

But to play devil's advocate here, where does this slippery slope end? Altitude tents, caffeine, L-carnitine supplements, L-carnitine IVs (since those are the recent subject), iron supplements..... when does something go from an acceptable way to gain an advantage to an unethical one?

I don't know how to objectively draw a line in the sand and have it not be subjectively unethical when you near that line, is my overall thought. I'm not saying I support his methods, I'm not saying I agree with it, but I don't think it can be punished (at least from what we know).

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BMBGuitar14:57 5k || 30:57 10k•

I understand that it is very difficult to draw that line, but we have to remember that these rules are in place for the safety of the athletes. Any banned substance is banned because of a health risk in some shape or form, not just because some of them enhance performance. If we were banning things just because they enhance performance, we might as well ban vegetables and a regular sleep schedule. Of course we wouldn't do that though, because those things don't put an athlete at risk of anything.

In addition to just banning substances, it can also be illegal to consume legal substances via certain methods or in certain amounts. Again, this is in place because these methods can be dangerous for the athlete. So here are my thoughts regarding the L-Carnitine IV:

L-carnitine is a naturally occurring amino acid that helps convert fat to energy; it is not banned by the World Anti-Doping Agency. However, what is prohibited are "infusions and/or injections of more than 50 mL per 6 hour period except for those legitimately received in the course of hospital admissions, surgical procedures or clinical investigations."

From the wording, you can tell that WADA wants to ban this method of infusion completely, but they also know there are legitimate (although very rare) cases where someone will need it. When the method was tested on Steve Magness, it is speculated that he received about 1000 mL in just over 4 hours, obviously way over the 50mL/hour limit. Why was information like the amount infused left off the medical documents? Nothing to hide, right? They just don't want any concrete evidence out there. Again for Ritz, they doctored the medical documents. There were differences between the medical documents provided by Dr. Brown and by Ritz. Again, nothing to hide, right?

In 2011, this drink that was supposed to boost L-Carnitine levels was very new, which also means any long term effects are not known. Testing new products on athletes definitely is not putting the athletes' health first. That's more just a red flag of Salazar's morals than it is something against the rules. Regardless, the 6 months needed to naturally raise L-Carnitine levels with the drink was way too long for Salazar, so he resorted to the infusions, which is completely unnatural.

So with some of the other things you mentioned now:

Altitude tents are just a luxury that most people can't afford. Sure, they boost performance, but it also doesn't put an athlete in danger.

Caffeine is a PED, but is obviously in coffee, tea, soda, etc, which is why it is just banned in a certain quantity. The amount of coffee that needs to be consumed to reach that banned level is beyond normal amounts. Drinking 6-8 cups of coffee 2-3 hours before a competition puts an athlete somewhere near that legal threshold. Caffeine pills can get an athlete to that threshold much easier, but that's pretty easily argued as against the spirit of sport, considering there's not really any legitimate medical reasons to take caffeine pills. That caffeine level is in place because too much is dangerous for someone.

Low iron levels is extremely common in female distance runners. In two years of coaching, I've had 5-6 girls with low iron. One of those girls was very very low, so they put her on a pretty big dose, and that was overcompensating a bit, and then her iron levels were too high, making her feel very sick. Thus the dosage was reduced to get her back to normal levels. Going above normal levels for iron isn't even beneficial for athletes because of the sickness it creates.

So the common thing here is that too much of any supplement or substance can put an athlete at risk. The limits on most of those substances are relatively high for the average person because of rare cases where someone really does have natural levels that are that high or for someone who has a legitimate medical reason for that supplement.

The way that NOP does things is to "diagnose" athletes with all of these conditions to make it look like taking these substances to boost them their upper limits is okay. Hypothyroidism is a pretty rare condition. Is it just a major coincidence that basically everyone in NOP has it? How come some of them did not have the condition before joining NOP? My thoughts are that Salazar takes the measures to make it appear that everything is within the spirit of sport, which is against the spirit of sport.

Every case with this group comes back to the same thing: there is no concrete evidence. With the number of high profile athletes that have spoken out about NOP and the number of sketchy stories of testing substances on subjects, that just tells me that NOP is too good at covering their tracks and/or they are covered by some higher governing body (and doctoring medical documents).

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punkrock_runner2:58 at 59•

agree with u/BMBGuitar, if these reports are true then the line has been crossed. WADA had rules on infusion rates of L-Cartinine and those were vastly exceeded. I don't care if it's otherwise legal, and that's crossing the line from a legal gray area to a violation.

On the other hand, the use of asthma meds to their limit, that's gray area. But dispensing the meds without a license (definitely a violation), or having athletes get prescriptions even though they do not have an asthma (that's going to be hard to enforce, but it's definitely crossing an ethical line).

Anyway, that's a spectrum of how I look at things.

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becauseican8Ask me about Labor Day•

Based on the R&D put into the project I would not be surprised if they tiptoe the line but never cross it. I also wouldn't be surprised if they are straight up doping. But I could certainly see Nike being ahead of WADA and giving drugs to their athletes that are not banned YET.

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Beck256'MERICA•

Our sport is so corrupt. Jama Aden is caught with EPO with all of his best athletes at their training camp? Nothing comes out of it, because obviously that wasn't for the athletes. Ferguson Kiprotich's ('16 Olympic 800m finalist) coach gets caught posing as him for a drug test? Obviously not a sign of doping and not the athlete's fault.

I'm right there with you. I don't understand how that much circumstantial evidence can be just let go and nothing done about it. No suspensions. Nothing.

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EabrytKyle Merber tweeted me once•

Not sure anything surprises me about this anymore. I think we're treading that weird line where some people will read it and say yes, that's clearly doping, etc and others will point out that it's not illegal, it's just pushing the envelope (which others have mentioned)

What's interesting to me is that right now ti can be compared in my mind a bit to Bill Belichick. That dude knows the playbook inside and out and will find all sorts of interesting tidbits and loopholes that he'll take advantage of. Then next season the league will outlaw it. Some people see it was playing dirty, especially the teams he beats, but technically there's nothing wrong with what he's doing.

That said, even if the kind of doping they're doing isn't illegal, it's still a bit shady.

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punkrock_runner2:58 at 59•

I don't have the time to read the report this week but will look forward to reading some of it.

But then again, say it ain't so Ritz! And I do like Jenkins, Hasay, and usually Rowbury (except when she resorts to some of the tactics she's used on the track).

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bourbonrunr•

Am I being naive or does it at least seem like Ritz was being taken advantage of and maybe stopped when he thought things crossed the line? One part of me says "come on man you knew something was up" and the other part of me says this is someone who put his complete faith into a guy and assumed that Alsal had all the t's crossed knowing exactly what was okay and what wasn't.

I am a huge Ritz fan so I might have my blinders on.

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moongreyOPSummer of the 10K•

I don't know that it's being naive. You choose a coach because you trust them and hope that they have your best interests in mind. It seems that AlSal pressured them to not question it, so maybe you just trust that he's not crossing the line even though it seems questionable?

But, Ritz left for a reason so maybe he lost that trust in AlSal. (I don't know why or if anyone knows why he left.)

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WinterspiteAll Talk, No Legs•

Having worked for a variety of organizations that had mandatory annual ethics training, one of the major takeaways was that if something seems wrong, you should report it.

Having worked for a variety of organizations that had ethics departments, I also learned that there is a vast chasm of difference between how organizations handle gray areas.

Some organizations take the high road and say that if X violates the spirit of the ethics regulation, even if it didn't actually break the rule itself, that it's wrong and needs to be stopped. Other organizations I've been a part of embraced that gray area and claimed that they were operating within the regulations, thank you for the report, and there was no cause for concern. Go back to work, peon.

I'd never go to work for one of those second places again.

It sounds like NOP is one of those places. While it's still up for debate if they're violating the actual written rules around doping, they are living quite happily in that gray area and as such I have no respect for what they're doing.

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Does_Not_Even_Lift...also has no speed•

I have always been suspect of all major running programs. The level of secrecy and lack of oversight speaks volumes to me.

If NOP didn't have anything to hide, they wouldn't go to the levels they do to hide stuff from their own governing bodies and even their own athletes...

That said, they are far from unique in that respect. The amount of times that an obvious question needs to be answered and either the Olympic committees or testing agencies in a country don't even look into it because it's not in their own best interests to do so is insane. "Can't get in trouble for cheating if we don't investigate and prove they are cheating. Now where's that check?"

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