Source
r/CompetitiveEDH•
liquidpixel

Win Conditions in Zur

First time poster to cEDH and I'm working on a somewhat budget list of Skuloth's Zur. The thread two weeks ago was extremely helpful in helping me choose budget options (Link) and I am in a similar place as the author of that post - don't own [[Candelabra of Tawnos]] or [[Timetwister]], nor do I own duals but I will be acquiring a Sea pretty soon.

This is my list since I'm obligated to post it: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/zur-22-03-14-1/

My question, and the title of the post, has nothing to do with budget; I'm referring to the previous post because I noticed links to a ("Shimmer Zur")[http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ad-nauseam-doomsday-zur-2/) list by bolsheviktory. The main differences between the two lists is that Shimmer plays a secondary win condition in [[Aetherflux Reservoir]]. The posts I referenced link to the lists but I haven't seen too much discussion on which version is better. My question is for the more experienced minds on this sub and especially for those who've played and tested both: Is it worth it to drop slots for the second win-con? Is Shimmer the new default or is the original still the way to go? I'm curious to know what everyone thinks because it seems like Skuloth hasn't updated his list (on TappedOut, anyway) since before Kaladesh & Reservoir released.

Posted Jun 15, 2017, 5:49 PM UTC

442
SFRGDoomsday, pass.•

In the traditional Zur list, you have a few win-conditions/ways to win. Here's how I tier them in order of which ones I try to do:

  1. Ad Nauseam + Angel's Grace/Phyrexian Unlife
  2. Casting Doomsday (Maniac required)

The first method involves you drawing your deck. Afterwards, you can either win with Maniac or use the following line:

Angel's Grace if not cast to prevent game loss (also cast Silence now) -> Brainstorm putting Yawgmoth's Will (or Snapcaster, YW preferred) on top of library -> Cast Windfall -> Cast Yawgmoth's Will -> Recast Windfall

The table will draw their decks and subsequently lose.

I have not felt a need to include win conditions past these, but it's not wrong to do so.

7
liquidpixelOP•

I made the post specifically because of how easy it might be to get rid of Lab Man. I understand the lines to win with him but if he gets hit by either [[Praetor's Grasp]] or [[Sudden Spoiling]] or if he's exiled and your [[Pull from Eternity]] gets countered, you straight lose. You are now telling me that the second win condition is built into the deck already - something that I had missed, and I thank you for this insight, this is the kind of info I was fishing for.

3
EsperIsMyBaeCreatures suck.•

Shimmerflux is a nice innovation, but after playing around with it a bit, I felt that it was just too clunky. It could entirely be my misplays, but I was always gated by either not drawing enough cards for the entire package, or simply not having enough mana to flash Myr and Helm/Sculptor to play everything else.

Instead of doing that, I've added Phyrexian Unlife and Demonic Consultation into my list. I also flex Praetor's Grasp in and out, depending on the people I'm playing against. These changes allow me to be a lot more flexible in keeping opening hands. Fast mana? Play Zur, and you can go for the Necroyolo, or Phyrexian Unlife if you can tutor up Ad Nauseam. Demonic Consultation in opening hand? Find LabMan ASAP. Ad Nauseam? Either go for Angel's Grace, or ramp the AN and go into Doomsday. LabMan exiled? Go for the AG + AN + Windfall (or spend the rest of the game dicking whoever took it).

Instead of having a strict game plan, all of my options are equally viable based on my opening hand. Makes mulligan decisions a bit easier, especially for new Zur players. I won't go so far as to say that it's the best list, but it's one that I personally prefer.

2
syjteHybrid DD Shimmer Zur•

Shimmer Zur can be tuned to be less clunky, but it requires a fundamental shift in game plan that makes it very different from DD Zur.

For me, I removed the entire Doomsday package, as well as the Notion Thief and Lab Maniac. In exchange, Zur into Necro is now my plan A for most games - Ad Nauseam becomes a Plan B. The deck is now a lot more consistent - a Turn 2/3 Zur almost always leads to a Turn 3/4 win respectively, which is a lot faster than the turn 4/5 Ad Nauseam/Doomsday turns. The overall lower curve you get from cutting Time Spiral, Gush and Notion Thief should also make the plan B Ad Naus slightly better - but I haven't tested this since I've rarely had the need to resort to Ad Naus at all.

The trade-off here is that the deck is a lot less resilient - you lose the mid-game versatility that DD Zur has. Instead of having your Ad Naus/Doomsday/Notion Thief/Zur plans A to D dependencies being somewhat like: 40/30/20/10, you only have 3 real plans: Zur/Ad Naus/Scepter, with your dependency on each being somewhere near 60/35/5.

1
EsperIsMyBaeCreatures suck.•

List? How does removing doomsday and labman make the necro plan any better?

1
MTGCardFetcher•

Praetor's Grasp - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD) (ER)
Sudden Spoiling - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD) (ER)
Pull from Eternity - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD) (ER)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call

1
JMCraigAncestral Animar // Doomsday Zur•

Agreed on not needing Aetherflux. I tried it out after not playing around the Grasp once when I was first learning the deck and it stayed in for about two weeks. Ultimately I found that trying to kill 3 people on pure storm was harder than the windfall line. That said, if your meta has Eldrazi/Gaeas Blessing I believe you can't force them to deck out, so watch for Froggies.

OP, I strongly advise just practicing the Angels Grace line a bunch. Holding your whole deck makes it almost impossible to lose!

0
Smerz007•

Gaeas blessing only triggers if its from the library. The eldrazi depend on which windfall it gets discarded by. If it's the second one they still lose because we finish resolving the windfall before any triggers its resolution would cause

Edit: thet actually still lose if its the first one cuz it only shuffles graveyard in

2
JMCraigAncestral Animar // Doomsday Zur•

Very interesting about Blessing; haven't played against that specifically. I guess for the Eldrazi you just have to go for it since you're usually playing this line as a last resort anyway. Very good info!

0
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
SFRGDoomsday, pass.•

Since they draw 70ish + cards then Windfall into the loss, it actually doesn't matter if they have those effects, they draw, then lose as Windfall resolves, so the triggers end up getting exiled. If they pitch Kozzy first discard round after Windfall no. 1, then they just shuffle after drawing a ton of cards. They aren't shuffling away their hand, and when they discard a bunch, they lose on resolution.

You can lose to a Quicken + Timetwister reset, though.

And I wouldn't be salty about that.

1
JMCraigAncestral Animar // Doomsday Zur•

Good stuff, yeah. I'd never played it out with Eldrazi, just assumed it wouldn't work.

On another note, if anyone kills me with Quicken I'm generally just impressed. no way I'm playing around instant-speed sorcereries in the blind. Fantastic line tho.

0
syjteHybrid DD Shimmer Zur•

Generally that's why you Silence before you start any Windfall shenanigans though. The most realistic way to stop the combo is actually Faerie Macabre exiling the Windfall with the Snapcaster/YawgWill trigger on the stack.

2
bolsheviktoryFear the Myr•

The Shimmer Myr list is very similar, only 2 cards are swapped out of Skuloth's list and 2 cards are swaps due to personal opinions that I believe the community mostly supports too. 

Personal opinion swaps are Cyclonic rift -> Hurky's recall and Power Artifact -> Mystic Remora. The community can probably get behind those 2 swaps.

The shimmer swaps are Pull from eternity -> Aetherflux reservoir and some card for Shimmer Myr.

The traditional list and Shimmer Zur both have 2 frequently dead in hand cards, Pull from eternity/Power artifact vs. Shimmer/Aetherflux.

I go over the advantages to this in the reddit writeup here but to summarize: 

AG + AN line can now win at instant speed so you can sneak in after a counter war

The Plan C of Swinging with Zur can now win a whole turn earlier. You can pay more life into Necro so you sculpt a better hand to win with even if you fail to storm off the same turn

You can recover from paying lots of life/being attacked so you last longer in grindy games and can see more cards with Necro

After playing Shimmer Zur for a while I like it better. Your plan C is faster, you don't lose any combo potential except the super narrow power artifact to pay taxes case and you can grind out slower games with life gain.

3
liquidpixelOP•

Hey thanks for the reply, I totally dig your deck btw. I'm curious about the Rift -> Recall change, I understand that you're using Recall on yourself to fuel Storm but I'm under the influence the Rift is in the list to bounce hate cards (can't target your own permanents) that are non-artifact, say if a Thalia or Rule of Law effect lands on the table.

2
bolsheviktoryFear the Myr•

Thanks! Recall fuels storm and is usually more effective at wiping stax effects since they tend to be artifacts.

Thorn, sphere, ethersworn canonist, trinisphere, winter orb, etc can all be removed, and usually the stax player plays multiple. The hatebears can be Mass wiped with toxic deluge and you are probably not the only player that wants the bears gone. The enchantments kinda suck but can still be hit by grasp of fate or chain of vapor.

Rift doesn't bounce your own spells and is pretty much never cast for overload do even something like into the roil seems like a better replacement.

0
liquidpixelOP•

Oh okay I was also under the impression that Rift was easy to overload due to a mass of artifact ramp. Yeah you are right about Stax pieces, 2 mana is a lot better than 7 in that instance. Do you ever find yourself cracking a Doomsday pile with Roil? Also, do you ever find yourself winning with Windfall?

1
bolsheviktoryFear the Myr•

The funny thing about overloading Cyc rift is you may be ramping opponents that also have fast mana on the table as you remove stax pieices, so it's something you would do EOT before you try to win. You are clearing the board too much to not win on your turn.

Hurkyl's is cooler than roil as a ritual for your own fast mana and works with stacking your Sensei's draw to get a free draw and the Sensei's in your hand. This is a pretty nice pile crack if the board state is right. Dramatic reversal is a pretty sweet ritual you can use Sensei's with too.

Shimmer wincons are pretty identical to Skuloth's Zur in that Ad naus -> Yawg -> AG Ad Naus is the main line and results in something like 60% of the wins. DD is plan B, Zur -> Necro is plan C. I've only had to use the large Windfall line to win once, but if you have to, Scroll Rack makes it much easier to get your Yawg's on top of the library for the recast.

0
JMCraigAncestral Animar // Doomsday Zur•

Yeah, FWIW i have very mixed feelings about Rift as well. I ended up cutting it in Leovold and when i swapped to Zur i added it back bc it seemed like a necessary pick for the broader meta, despite me never getting too much value out of it. What would you say are the best arguments for keeping it and cutting it? I'm inclined to swap over to a better anti-meta tech pick like Stifle or Shadow of Doubt.

2
bolsheviktoryFear the Myr•

Unless you actually use the overload, into the roil is an upgrade. Since it's main job is to remove stax pieces and the stax player usually plays multiple pieces, most of which are artifacts, hurkyls is usually better. I think it's more meta dependent like you say but in a blind meta I'd rather have hurkyls

2
syjteHybrid DD Shimmer Zur•

I feel that if you make this little swaps, the deck will definitely end up being a lot more clunky - I've been playing Shimmer Myr for a while, and the list I've tuned so far actually differs from my original DD Zur list by a significant margin. I'm playing Isochron/Reversal, Retract, Paradoxical Outcome, Scroll Rack, Enlightened Tutor.

The game plan shifted significantly too - since the deck is built more consistently around Shimmer Myr, Zur actually becomes the Plan A - I actually can't remember the last time I won with Ad Nauseam after modifying my list. Ad Nauseam becomes the back-up plan assuming Zur doesn't get a hit in.

2
bolsheviktoryFear the Myr•

I meant more the core combo, if you just make those 4 swaps the shimmer line still functions decently as a plan c and if I you fail you still have DD to fall back on.

I made adjustments too, dramatic reversal is a nice ritual on its own, scroll rack, enlightened, quicken, and I'm testing nihil over tormods now.

I think plan A is still ad naus though, you aren't vulnerable for a turn and don't broadcast your attempt with the general.

How's the scepter been working for you? It wasn't up to par in my testing but I only tested for a little while

1
syjteHybrid DD Shimmer Zur•

It was a really good shortcut for Shimmer lines. Shimmer into ramp into sceptre reduces the critical mass needed to go off, making Aetherflux wins a lot more realistic.

Yes, that's quite a drawback, but it's also kinda like Hermit Druid in that you force your opponents to deal with it ASAP. The AN simulator puts my Ad Naus at 23 cards. For Skuloth's it's a bit lower at about 20-21. Rushing Necro promises me at least 10 more cards on average, and that makes it worth the risk.

I'm not playing Doomsday or Labman. Drawing Labman feels so much worse than drawing Reservoir. Without Labman, the Doomsday lines are too clunky to be worth it. Without this one card to set up, it also makes Ad Naus worse because it's very difficult to the win even with 20 cards.

Yes, I basically changed the deck to esper Hermit Druid, except it has more interaction, dies to less hate, and my "Hermit Druid" is actually in my Command Zone.

2
bolsheviktoryFear the Myr•

That's a very fair point and you do draw the deck with dramatic scepter with sensei's, too... DD can probably be included just for the scepter into aetherflux lines, right?

Do you have a list I can look at?

1
syjteHybrid DD Shimmer Zur•

It's not worth it to drop the slots for the second win condition, regardless of which variation you play.

I started playing cEDH with a budget version of Skuloth's Zur, just like you did, and managed to get it up to almost 100% (only missing a Flusterstorm now). At first, I didn't like the thought of potentially losing to a Praetor's Grasp, and tried shoehorning in some alternate win-conditions such as Helm-Rip, etc, none of which I was ever satisfied with. Eventually, I tried the Shimmer Myr variation, but it was clunky and found that all it did was introduce an additional clunky combo plan that was not necessarily reliable. Ultimately, I just decided that the deck would have to make do with just Labman and Windfall.

Recently though I've went back to the Shimmer Zur builds - but my second attempt had one big difference - this time I focused the deck around the Shimmer Zur lines, and to get the deck to feel smooth, I had to cut a lot of the elements from Skuloth's list - mainly the Doomsday packages, Notion Thief, Time Spiral, etc. The lesson I learnt here is that you either play Aetherflux or Labman, but not both. Both wincons require very different setups, and trying to incorporate both into the same deck is simply too clunky. Choose one or the other - IMHO both variations of Zur are equally strong, although I would argue that Shimmer Zur is more fun to play, and no less challenging than Doomsday.

2
liquidpixelOP•

That makes total sense and what I was thinking also, just stick with one gameplan. Thanks for the insight, I think casting Doomsday is really what I want to be doing.

1
MTGCardFetcher•

Candelabra of Tawnos - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD) (ER)
Timetwister - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD) (ER)
Aetherflux Reservoir - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD) (ER)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call

1
ajacobikHigh Tide in Every Format•

I run a list similar to Skuloth's, but I include Reservoir as my meta is very heavy on Grasp effects. I like having a second strong option that feeds further Ad Nauseam and Necropotence abuse. In a meta with fewer extraction effects running around I'd ditch the Reservoir for another counter or Lim-Dul's Vault.

1
QKNARWHALZur / Bruna •

Hey that's my post!

I pretty much did what they suggested and added the things to replace what I didn't have.

1
liquidpixelOP•

Yeah haha I'm at about the same point as you. I started Voltron and had a lot of Storm cards already, I only recently learned about this sub so I figured I'd convert. Are you going to GenCon at all?

1
QKNARWHALZur / Bruna •

I have my Bruna voltron deck so the expensive cards from there like [[mana drain]] and [[tundra]] I'll switch them between. Also don't think I will be going

0
MTGCardFetcher•

mana drain - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD) (ER)
tundra - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD) (ER)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call

1
Odinson13•

I run a roughly 75% Zur list, and just for fun I use [[repay in kind]] to win off Ad Nauseam. I play in a fairly non-competitive meta though, so use it at your own risk.

Edit: I also run the two other Lab Maniac finishers.

0†
MTGCardFetcher•

repay in kind - (G) (MC) (MW) (CD) (ER)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call

1