Source
r/WorldOfWarships•
bfoo

Make Radar and Hydro more realistic and increase skill requirements for using it

Discussion

I find that Radar and Hydro in its current state are overpowered and unrealistic. Especially Radar is adding to the passive gameplay, because DDs are afraid of or dying early to ships running it and BBs / CAs are not eager to push in after DDs have died.

What if Wargaming changes the mechanics, so it requires more skill to have an advantage and that gives victims a chance:

  • Radar and Hydro don't display the actual ship, but a blurred visualisation of a ship, without revealing the actual ship type. You will see a "spectral" mimicking a DD for a DD type ship, a CA for CA ship type, ... you get the idea.
  • Radar and Hydro turn in 360 degrees and have a narrow arc to detect something.
  • And only if the arc spots the ship, its blurred "spectral" is revealed, until the arc of the next turn detects it again.
  • If a ship gets "standard spotted", the spectral is removed immediately.
  • Either is the "spectral" not moving at all when detected, or it is moving into the direction at the time it was detected, even if the actual ship turns.
  • If Hydro detects torps, the same rules are applied to them. Maybe you don't get "spectrals" of single torps unless they reach a certain distance. So detecting them early on will give you an approximation, but you will have to wait for them closing in, until you can commit to dodging them.
  • You can lock on a "spectral" detected by Radar. Detecting the next "spectral" of the ship will move the target indication on the new "spectral".
  • A "spectral" detected by Hydro cannot be locked on. You will have to free fire. But usually ships are only detected by Hydro at close range.

I think, these changes would severely change the game into a better one. It gives detected ships a better chance. It also increases the need for skill to "punish" a detected ship.

What do you think?

Edit: Typos.

Posted Jun 28, 2017, 6:49 PM UTC · edited

038
Anime_Loser(■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■)•

This is an arcade game, not a simulator. Realism of these consumables shouldn't be a focus.

13
bfooOP•

Yeah, but if you mention mechanics like detonations, you always get people referring to "realism". So what is it then?

3
Anime_Loser(■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■)•

Easy. Fun and Engaging mechanics. It equalizes player skill.^( /s)

9
bfooOP•

I cannot and will not argue with you any further ;).

2
NovuakeDouble Overpen [2OP]•

What is fun? What is not fun? Simple. Thats how gamers think and thats what game design should focus on. Enjoyment.

1
seedless0Destroyer•

So will you be fine if they add energy shield to the game? It's arcade so why not, right? /s

See. Some resemblance to the reality is still the major part of the attraction of this game.

-9
pdboddyRoyal Navy•

Sure, let's add realism. Every battleship now gets radar. :) AWESOME!

Because realism.

7
anchistFishbowl•

I don't see any skill in this solution, all I see is more RNG as detection would be dependent on a) when the beam hits the target b) my dispersion not being shit.

No thanks.

10
bfooOP•

You need some skill to estimate the ships actual position. So if you see the spectral turning left, you can estimate that it is still turning and shoot at its spectral. If the ship keeps turning with the exact same speed and rudder shift, you will hit it.

The "spectral" should be blurred so your aim is somewhat obfuscated. But that can be tuned. Maybe its even a range and ship size thing. Ships further away have a more blurred spectral. Bigger ships have a less blurred spectral. But since you can lock on with radar, you have a great chance of hitting the actual ship, unless it turns hard (which can have its side effects of its own).

2
pdboddyRoyal Navy•

Today I learned that skill = luck.

6
Zaharedಠ_ಠ•

Hey, you could learn that from every single EU weekly, so WG thinks the same.

1
YourSATScoreAlways mistaken for the other test score•

Hydro changes are unnecessary because of its relatively short range. Most DDs already stay well beyond the 6.1km maximum acquisition range on Kurfurst.

If Hydro detects torps, the same rules are applied to them. Maybe you don't get "spectrals" of single torps unless they reach a certain distance. So detecting them early on will give you an approximation, but you will have to wait for them closing in, until you can commit to dodging them.

Isn't this defeating the point of taking hydro to dodge torpedoes?

5
CAT32VS3RD BEST SERVER •

It's 5.88 sat

1
bfooOP•

It could be adjusted. Maybe Hydro will detect torp "spectrals" earlier and actual torps later. But maybe, torps are not affected by this mechanic at all. It will need testing and adjustments. But it would be better than just having the actual torps popping up.

0
YourSATScoreAlways mistaken for the other test score•

Why is the original torp spot mechanic bad? It will spot the torps from further out, but you still have to dodge them.

2
bfooOP•

I think it should be consistent. In reality, hydro acoustic search only gives an approximation of targets, angle towards the ship and speed. You should be able to dodge easily if you spend attention. But you will see the actual torps later, so you still have to make adjustments to course and speed.

Maybe that's something that is less important than spotting actual ships. It could be introduced / tested later.

1
Riker557118•

In reality sonar is really damn accurate, I don't know where you're pulling your facts from.

4
DiRavello•

Sounds like a bunch of unnecessarily complex mechanics. Seems like you are only considering skilled players and not the average that make up the majority and who probably wouldn't be able to effectively use these tools at all.

I don't think these changes would really solve passive play.

3
bfooOP•

No, I don't consider only skilled players. Of course it would it make harder to hit something for all players, including bad players. But you should be able to train your predictions (a skill). And players, who constantly track and estimate the target's real position will be rewarded. And those targets who change course and speed while detected, should be able to dodge more salvos / shells.

I don't say it should be much harder. The spectral movement / positioning / blur can be adjusted to make it rewarding to shoot at it.

1
seedless0Destroyer•

Those are not bad ideas. But WG wants the game to be simple so people can just hop in and shoot the big guns then pad themselves on the back for a game after landing landing a few salvos.

Casual gamers are where the money is, not us. And casual gamers want simple, easy to follow rules. And they like big guns.

3
bfooOP•

I am afraid you could be right. But that's driving the better players away in the long term. I like the game. I like its pace. But it gets more frustrating from day to day with game mechanics that don't reward players who are good and players who want to become better.

I for myself decided, I will play the next season. If it is worse than the previous seasons, I probably quit the game for good.

1
MadCard05Alpha Tester •

Before Radar was introduced, Tier 8+ was basically BBs vs DDs. Cruisers didn't have a real spot because DDs would just spot them while the BBs fought over who got to eat them.

Tier 8+ was basically a ghost town with most matches have 1-3 Cruisers during peak times.

So Radar was introduced so Cruisers could serve a purpose and better fulfill their role. It has obviously worked as Cruiser population is actually fairly good at Tiers 8 and 10, but lags behind at 9.

3
MintMrChris•

As a long time DD player, who also play cruiser now, radar is a necessary mechanic, hydro is also to an extent (its just BS when they slap that stuff on a BB)

as a DD, one of your first priorities is working out where the enemy radars are located, hydro is a close range ability (and tbh nasty german hydro is often def AA on stuff like Hindenburger)

I do dislike that it works through islands, but then I can't shoot the target like that, I am just using it to reveal the enemy, the cone of vision idea is interesting and I have seen it suggested before (so you need to have some idea of the direction the ship you want to radar is in)

otherwise it is fine, while smoke is also necessary, the ability of radar to negate it is also required to make gameplay a bit dynamic - I don't like any of this "spectral" idea stuff, if it is in line of sight and within radar range, it should show that ship

2
bfooOP•

Yeah, hydro and radar through islands should be removed. I guess, it is more a technical problem than a balance problem, because it would require the server to track much more rays (around islands and their complex shape) to find targets (ships and torps) that are revealed.

I play DDs a lot too. I also play radar ships. I would not mind if I have to guess the detected ship's movement. And if there are several ships in smoke or obstructed by an island, why should I know what exact ship it is? It would add a bit more realism.

2
its_real_I_swear•

Instead of showing the ships maybe we could just allow the player to interpret a realistic WW2 radar readout:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS_layb4ZO9ULazoLxqBq-stxWSeLyKN29Ujs3aRQA3y4FrpkP_

/s

2
bfooOP•

I second that! Haha! And you would need to manually add each detection to a logbook.

But lets not scare the potatoes. We need them as a (paying) critical mass to keep the game alive.

2
cantpissoffmodsI want Wave Motion Gun for the Yamato.•

because DDs are afraid of or dying early to ships running

The only ones dying early are the cruisers using radar. If they get too close and dont kill the DD spotting them, they are toast. And honestly, although i like playing cruisers, the addition of radar reduced the torpedo soup plaguing the high tier games. Get a Shima, fire torps at max range and wait for them to land. Hydro and radar makes it harder to land torps, and thats a good thing.

Randomizing everything like you suggest wouldnt balance anything.

2
bfooOP•

I don't talk of "randomizing" anything. I just talked about replacing a clear vision of a radar/ hydro detected ship by something that is a littlebit harder to hit. It can be adjusted to where the average player still lands good hits (including citadels and detonations) but gives the detected ship a better chance to evade shells.

I added the torp detection just for staying consistent. This as well can be adjusted to a point that makes sense for everyone, in front and behind a torp wall.

1
OhNoThatSucksSeal•

Don't use F3 torpedoes.

1
FormulaZRStriving to be better than Bot_3•

I think the only change that should be made is that radar/hydro should not see through mountains. Aircraft spotting/AA should also not go through mountains. Obviously the mechanic is already there since I can't shoot main/secondary battery through the islands.

1
bfooOP•

I guess, it is a technical problem. The server would need to consider islands when using rays to resolve whether something is detected. With the complex shape of islands, this is not easy to achieve (at least if server performance should not suffer). Maybe I am wrong and Wargaming is either too lazy or wants to make it easier for the potatoes.

1
Riker557118•

Err, contrary to the movies sonar dosn't actually "sweep", and we know exactly what kind of ship we're picking up with sonar due to the sound signature of each ships machinery. And it also pretty damn accurate for direction as well, maybe make the sonar a wireframe.

1
bfooOP•

You are right. Hydro (which is more like passive sonar) should not have rotating arcs. Maybe the "blurry spectral / wireframe" could be where the actual ship is, but you still cannot lock. Given the close range required, it should still be viable to blind-fire.

1
Riker557118•

So with the aim assist helping you aim the diffrence between sonar and visually seeing a ship would just the station reporting the contact.

1
bfooOP•

I hope, I understand your point: Yes, if another ship or a plane spots the target (without any technical help), it is normal detected (as today). If not normal detected, but detected by sonar / hydro, you still see a "spectral / wireframe" that is obscured. That should make it a bit harder to aim for certain sections of the ship.

1
Barbosa003•

I've always wondered why radar/hydro would show everyone where a ship is instead of just showing the radar cruiser. To me, it would make more sense to have the radar user the only one "seeing" a hidden ship, to give the radar a longer run time...before it breaks. But I guess that to much skill for WG to implement?

1
bfooOP•

Its because ships are communicating their detections. In early days, this happened via analog radio (voice or morse/telegraph). In modern ships, this data is shared digitally so several ships can build target solutions together.

1