So I debated Sargon of Akkad, Here's the Transcript, How did I do?

This was on Facebook btw.

Kiel: Why do you think BLM supporters are the black equivalent of neo-nazis?

If you're pushing to end mass illegal searches and give ppl their 4th amendment rights back (blacks are 13% of drug users, but make up 39% of drug arrests and 60% of convictions despite getting caught with contraband a smaller percent of the time) then how are you the equivalent of white nationalists that want to exacerbate your suffering, even if there's a riot?

Sargon of Akkad: because they are both racial collectivists. You think the alt right don't have a list of grievances towards white people? Ideologically, they're both German. Black people are overrepresented in non-violent crime statistics because their neighbourhoods are overrepresented in violent crime statistics.

Kiel: ^^^that still doesn't prove that the illegal searches and pullovers are proportional to the violent crime.

Its not right to take away the 4th amendment rights of the entire population for the actions of 2% of black males. We have the most ppl in prison in the 'land of the free' ffs.

Sargon of Akkad: I know, I disagree with your prison industrial complex

Kiel: White identity politics is easily alot worse. There is no equivalence.

With black identity politics you can have the goal of ending mass illegal searches that punish far more ppl than violent criminals. You can advocate for ending mass incarceration or undoing poverty that happens to often on racial lines.

With white identity politics (in the 1st world atleast) it's almost all advocating for the suffering of other ppl. And its almost all based on delusions like thinking that blacks are taking away admissions and scholarships that rightfully belong to white ppl, or that any black person that got into college only did it bc of affirmative action. Or that the legal system is in any way treating white ppl worse than minorities. White identity politics is almost entirely victim blaming and advocating for injustice for other groups. It's almost purely antagonist and with no justifications.

Atleast with other forms of identity politics there's some real justice to be fulfilled, even if it can sometimes be used cynically.

And yeah civil rights can provoke freedom hating authoritarian rightwingers, that doesn't make both sides equally bad. If you're campaigning for police reform and that fuels tensions and leads to a riot happens, the side pushing for ending mass incarceration isn't equally as bad as the ppl promoting injustice and suffering of others.

Sargon of Akkad: They are absolutely equivalent in the principles by which they operate, as in, collectivist ones. There is no end to identity politics. Jews are the most successful identitarian group in the US and they cling to identity politics and merely mentioning the fact that Jews are identitarian can end your career. There is no situation in which the identitarians give up the power they gain through ill-gotten means.

Kiel: Pretty sure identitarian groups gave up power when ending Jim Crow.

How the hell does the morality of the group's goals not make a difference?

How is rightwingers building resentment towards minorities getting free shit equal to advocating reversing the effects of redlining?

Sargon of Akkad: because the morality is subjectively in favour of each group against another group. I don't see how you can say that black identitarians don't plan to create injustices against white people, we see it every single day

Kiel: what injustices are blacks doing to whites?

Sargon of Akkad: why did you change it from black identitarians to blacks?

Kiel: They have mostly the same interests. And they're usually discussed in the same context.

Sargon of Akkad: So? I said "black identitarians" for a reason, they don't have to be black. But you reframed the question How about the DNC forum, where Sally Brown, a black identitarian, said her job was to shut white people down? how is that NOT an injustice?

Kiel: Dude thats a quote by one person. I'm talking about white republicans bitching about how blacks are taking away their scholarship money, college admissions and jobs.

Sargon of Akkad: yes, it's one example I pulled off the top of my head, now answer my question

Kiel: Which was?

Sargon of Akkad: is it an injustice that there are activists devoted to "shutting down" white people because they're white?

Kiel: A pretty damn small injustice. Especially since its a micro situation by one person and not a macro trend.

Sargon of Akkad: it's absolutely a macro trend lol Jesus are you serious?

Kiel: How? In the same scenario blacks can point to guys like Charles Murray painting them as subhuman and justifying not mending poverty.

Sargon of Akkad: he's not doing that

Kiel: While getting way more attention and press fair

Sargon of Akkad: How? How many articles do I need to cover that start with the premise: "white people need to X"?

Kiel: He says that blacks are deterministically less intelligent, places a uniform trait on a wide genetically diverse population. What did I miss? How the fuck is that an injustice? Thats just some dumb feminist committing a micro aggression

Sargon of Akkad: I should read into Murry more, I admit, but I was under the impression he was looking at the data.

Kiel Alot of his'data' comes from the Pioneer Foundation

Sargon of Akkad Dumb feminist shit reaches the highest levels and they discriminate on that basis. Look at the BBC Pay gap "scandal" and the women now suing Google over nothing

Kiel A real life 1930s eugenics think tank that supported the real life nazis.

Sargon of Akkad Well, I don't keep up with his work so I am not in a position to debate it, but that doesn't change the constant drum-beat against white people you know the independent published an article saying that white people should never hold a university office again?

Kiel But you're talking about microagressions with few real world consequences.

Sargon of Akkad this kind of propaganda can legitimately be termed "anti-white" because it is I don't agree that microaggressions exist, but these events are not in a vacuum

Kiel But almost literally nobody supports enacting that stuff.

Sargon of Akkad there are a bunch of racial collectivists who are determined not to help non-white people up, but drag white people down. Except for the millions that do.

Kiel I'm sure neo-liberal corporate democrats would like the poor to be more diverse

Sargon of Akkad the problem they have is that the laws prevent racial and gender discrimination, much to their chagrin

Kiel Not really. If you have a black name, that alone is going to decrease your call back rate by 30% At the very least you have to show discrimiation is taking effect

Sargon of Akkad and so white people must be punished for that?

Kiel Right now you have white men comfortably in positions of power, it hasn't hit their wallets.

Sargon of Akkad so you are also a racial collectivist lol

Kiel Nobody has to be punished

Sargon of Akkad except they do what's wrong with white men in positions of power?

Kiel If one group is doing better that doesn't mean white men are being punished. NOTHING is wrong with that But it shows there isn't this widespread discrimination or injustice relative to other groups.

Sargon of Akkad exactly. Because these aren't groups, they're demographics

Kiel semantics

Sargon of Akkad not necessarily, that's what you're assuming. not at all a group implies some form of coordination

Kiel No it doesnt

Sargon of Akkad of course it does otherwise there wouldn't be such hysterical shrieking over white men

Kiel it can take the form of 50% of hirings being based on friend recommendations. Nothing malicious about that, but it does put other groups at a disadvantage. White men wouldn't be hysterically screeching without decades of anti-minority propaganda

Sargon of Akkad cronyism is endemic to humans it's not about race well, usually for some it is, of course

Kiel Like why does Ben Shapiro have to lambast Sesame Street by pointing out that blacks and latinos benefit from it by getting FREE education?

If he were honest he'd say pbs was so all poor ppl could get education, but he has to build up resentment to minorities to pass his agenda.

Sargon of Akkad lol does he? I've never heard him mention Sesame Street Kiel https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W1NURCkQHM

Thom Hartmann: Is Sesame Street subverting children with a liberal bias? Beware of the left-wing Sesame Street conspiracy. That's right - move over NPR - some on the right are accusing Sesame Street of being a liberal propaganda o... youtube.com

btw Ben immediately moves the goal post to Hollywood and runs out the clock.

Sargon of Akkad I'm sure he does, but I'm not an advocate for him

Kiel You have him on your liked pages, but whatevs

Sargon of Akkad yeah, it's pages I follow

Kiel I'm just pointing out that conservatives exploit identity polics as viciously as liberals

Sargon of Akkad I'm sure they do, but I'm not a conservative

Kiel Sanders v Trump, who's better ?

Sargon of Akkad Trump, Sanders is spineless.

Kiel How?

Sargon of Akkad he doesn't have the backbone to stand up for his principles

Kiel What about Trump renegging on TPP by putting its measures into NAFTA renegotiations? Liiiiike?

Sargon of Akkad Yeah, it's shit. http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/bernie-sanders-democrats-identity-politics-231710 Sanders slams identity politics as Democrats figure out their future “It’s not good enough for someone to say, I’m a woman! Vote for me!’” politi.co don't hear him saying much about this now how about when entitled BLM collectivists stole his platform in Phoenix? the man is a well-meaning social democrat, but he doesn't have the spine for the fight

Kiel Probably bc he was talking about cynical Clinton identity politics. Do you realize how often Neera Tanden calls Bernie supports racists and sexists?

Sargon of Akkad he can see the problems but he's too old and not aggressive enough yep. That's the cancer I'm talking about On a personal level, I'm sure Bernie is a lovely guy with great intentions

Kiel But the difference is that the Clinton camp knows they're full of shit. Thats not the same as trying to reverse redlining

Sargon of Akkad but he got cucked by BLM, he got shafted by Hillary and he got beat down by racial activists in the democrat party he isn't the guy I don't really care about a single issue, tbh. It's the underlying principles the left is operating on at the moment to which I object they're not individualist principles, which causes all the problems we see now

Kiel Sanders knew Clinton was going to paint him as a racist white guy, that's probably what he was thinking when giving those two blm girls the stage.

Still Trump is scared shitless of Sanders, HE never responds when Sanders criticizes him.

Sargon of Akkad that it is even possible to try and paint Bernie as a racist white guy is the problem lol

Kiel Yes i hate corporate dems with a passion. But what Sanders is trying to do is make those ppl subordinate to the left wing of the party. Dumb latte pseudo-liberals aren't going away over night.

Sargon of Akkad sure, but like i said, Bernie isn't the guy

Kiel Then who is?

Sargon of Akkad No idea, I don't see any good candidates at all Trump is at least prepared to stand his ground against the corporate verified lefties in the media and dems find someone who has the stones to stand up to these people

Kiel How the fuck has Trump not been a corporate fuck puppet?

Sargon of Akkad because he doesn't give a shit. His twitter account regularly wipes billions off the stocks of international corporations

Kiel Also the msm is way less worse than fucking breitbart, infowars, or Crowder

Sargon of Akkad he's ploughing ahead despite monumental resistance So? Breitbart, Infowars and Crowder are not the MSM

Kiel Who cares if Trump doesn't give a shit? Its his agenda that matters. OR Paul Ryan's agenda since its whats being passed

Sargon of Akkad I give a shit lots of Trump supporters do

Kiel They're WORSE than msm and have a comparable reach

Sargon of Akkad Not really they don't have the social capital the MSM has and never will

Kiel Trump supporters are idiots. Thats why they're trump supporters

Sargon of Akkad their ideas are either too loopy or too old-school conservative

Kiel But they put out way more misinformation

Sargon of Akkad Trump supporters are the downtrodden, disenfranchised people

Kiel They're middle class conservatives that vote in every republican candidate

Sargon of Akkad Come on, let's not start with who is putting out misinformation about what, because everyone is guilty of that to a monumental degree No, they're not, they're working class people who need a break from immigration and identity politics if you were right the rust belt wouldn't have flipped

Kiel Immigration doesn't effect them.

Sargon of Akkad it does Man that is an arrogant position

Kiel The rust belt flipped bc Clinton is an unlikable twat combined with Sanders supporters not showing up. Thats why tRUMP got the same votes as Romney and Clinton got 5 million less than Obama in 2012 and 8 million less than 2008

Sargon of Akkad Globalisation and mass immigration affects them a lot it's because Clinton didn't appeal to their concerns Trump is an unlikeable twat too

Kiel But his voters showed up.

Sargon of Akkad the problem you have, I think, is partisanship. I don't care about your left or right, I care about redressing the power imbalance in your society to reign in the inevitable civil war and end of your republic. Trump is a major part of that, but he has to succeed in stopping mass immigration and bringing the press to heel

Kiel Illegal migrant workers, ignore the fact they're mostly in legal limbo and its not as simple as legal vs illegal:

Theres very little demand for trump voting natives to do the jobs that mexican day laborers do. Sargon of Akkad I know the narrative

Kiel Well facts are alittle inconvienent to immigration being at all important to the lives of trump voters.

Sargon of Akkad how many illegal mexicans are in the Rust belt? I'm afraid I've got other things to do, but I do suggest you worry less about who/what is left/right and start looking at this through a class lens and analysing the power dynamics between each class.

Kiel IDK. But there are alot in republican texas

Sargon of Akkad Not many, is what I'd guess. Anyway, it's been nice talking to you.

Kiel Fine you to, but it still makes no sense that denying the msm and immigration solves anything for anyone

Sargon of Akkad ending mass immigration solves a lot of problems. I'll explain another day.

Kiel kk