Source
r/Gunners•
Deadlyft_Chaps

[Discussion] On Lemar, Soft Power and the price of winning

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/01/neymar-transfer-barcelona-soft-power-asian-governments

So, let's have a quick reality check. Recent quotes from Wenger are around the cost of players, the bids we did or did not submit, and concern over the ability of states to spend money on football, on what is or isn't too much for a player and so on.

I've lost count of the number of times I have seen people say "well we should just have submitted £100m at the start of summer" or "if he becomes the next pele, it will be worth it". This seems ludicrous.

What is the price worth paying for a win? What is the value of - essentially - bragging rights?

Neymar cost £198m this summer. This was an investment by a state currently undergoing significant political difficulties in order to secure international soft power and boost their profile in readiness for the world cup. This wasn't about PSG specifically, or them winning a trophy.

For £198m you can send over 4,000 students to one of the most prestigious and expensive universities in the world (Harvard) with full board. It is enough to fund hospitals, schools, police forces. These are sums of money that are nothing to do with a player's ability on the football pitch and everything to do about what the association with that player can bring for an entity.

Arsenal football club are not owned by a state. Our interest begins and ends at winning matches; with bragging rights and wikipedia entries. Football is fun, but silly. It's 22 men kicking a leather ball around a pitch.

So the discussion is this: Are we really prepared to consider that winning a game, with nothing else on the table, is worth such an investment? Do we really feel this is a thing worth condoning and more importantly, worth losing sleep over? Can anyone truly say, hand on heart, that any player is worth £100m to Arsenal Football club? Or are we just resentful that we're not the beneficiaries of much larger games being played?

I have seen death threats, vile insults, anger and resentment spewing in incredible quantities over a simple game, and our unwillingness to spend more on a young boy who is pretty good at kicking a ball than my whole country raises for child abuse support. Are we sure that our priorities are correct here? My own view is it is deeply, deeply frustrating to not compete, but I am not sure that competing is worth it, when looking at the scale of investment required, and the gulf in difference for what we're trying to win versus what teams like PSG (read: state of Qatar) are trying to win.

Thoughts? (please, beyond "that's just what the market says" - my whole point, before someone goes there, is we are not trying to buy what certain teams are trying to buy).

edit: This is not a defense of Arsene Wenger, the board, or anyone associated with the terrible mismanagement of our club.

Posted Sep 3, 2017, 1:21 PM UTC · edited

326
realdurrty•

Can anyone truly say, hand on heart, that any player is worth £100m to Arsenal Football club?

Sorry but what else is the money for?

18
GengaarHENRY! CHANCE! GOAL!•

I could name a good handful of players for £100m...

1
AnotherPunnyName•

Stan "The Man" Kronkie & cash reserves of Arsenal Financial Club

1
comphysOliG12 EM26•

WARCHEST

1
Deadlyft_ChapsOP•

Cutting the cost of watching the game? Community work (clubs used to be community entities). Investing in our own academies and giving a step up to local kids that might well cut it, rather than blowing the GDP of a small country on a brazillian?

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realdurrty•

Cutting the cost of watching the game?

Ha, good one.

Community work (clubs used to be community entities).

I pay to watch football. I donate to charities for that sort of thing.

Investing in our own academies and giving a step up to local kids that might well cut it, rather than blowing the GDP of a small country on a brazillian?

We've put a lot of money into our academy and basically nobody comes out of it. Iwobi might be a squad player if we're lucky. Who did we have before him, Wilshere? Look where he is now.

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Deadlyft_ChapsOP•

Is that not an argument for investing in and improving our Academy?

I pay to watch football. I donate to charities for that sort of thing.

And people say football has lost its soul!

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realdurrty•

Is that not an argument for investing in and improving our Academy?

You can't just dump 100m on the academy and start churning out talent, doesn't really work like that

And people say football has lost its soul!

When was football ever about anything other than going to a match on a Saturday to be entertained, and paying for that entertainment

7
eldar4k•

We are not playing in French league with PSG, so it not really matter that we cant spend 200 mil in single player. We however can financially compete with English clubs (look at damn Liverpool securing transfer of amazing Naby Keita) and still buy quality players, we just chose to not compete and address one squad problem in a year instead of spending big money in one window, build a title-running squad and win the league. Our club cheap even to own workers for not paying them living wage, its not about that we above ridiculous spending because it ruins football, its because club lets say it frankly is cheap.

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Deadlyft_ChapsOP•

You're helping illustrate exactly my point.

Why are we more angry that we didn't pay £100m instantly for Lemar, before the Neymar deal changed everything, than we are angry at the cost of watching the team, or our inability to respect our own staff?

I am so disappointed we couldn't do anything around Keita, or convince other targets who were available at sensible prices, to join the club.

I'm hugely frustrated at our contracts, the way Wenger has been handled, and how we set up on the pitch.

But death threats over not going into battle on the marketplace with entities like Qatar, the Oil Sheiks of Saudi Arabia or Oligarchs looking to earn themselves political goodwill and protection?

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ndenoon•

I think you're unnecessarily complicating this. Anger is fine, death threats are bad. The rest--about oligarchs, education, etc.--is noise.

4
dakhoa•

I think you're making this discussion way bigger than it has to be. This is not about children, education. We're talking about football and Arsenal is just that, a football club.

A club of Arsenals size should have bigger ambitions than those just shown in this transfer window. It's more than about winning it is creating a club that attracts talent.

PSG has catapulted itself into the top echelon of club's with Barcelona, Real etc which is in the long-term worth their investment in my uneducated opinion.

I think the frustration of many Arsenal fans is that the club is losing ground against it's competitors with the same or less budget. Big talents rather go to the real big club's with a lot of money and young talents rather go to Dortmund or Monaco. So where does that leave Arsenal?

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MajesticPlatypus9•

Can anyone truly say, hand on heart, that any player is worth £100m to Arsenal Football club?

yes

I have seen death threats, vile insults, anger and resentment spewing in incredible quantities over a simple game, and our unwillingness to spend more on a young boy who is pretty good at kicking a ball than my whole country raises for child abuse support. Are we sure that our priorities are correct here?

this is as dumb as the 'muh soldiers should get footballers wages' argument. Football is a market, it derives its prices from supply and demand

no surprise this came from the guardian as well, theyre known for spewing crap like this

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scytheavatar•

How do you explain us not being competitive to Liverpool and Spurs? Even though they don't have state of Qatar backing them? Heck Chelsea didn't buy a £100m player so why are they able to win the league?

4
cptsteve21Real Banter: The Banter Era Never Ended•

Shh we don't discuss the things that go on in the training ground or on the pitch because we can't blame those on bogeymen like Kroenke

1
London_Irish_•

Arsenal football club are not owned by a state. Our interest begins and ends at winning matches; with bragging rights and wikipedia entries.

The point is labourer at this point but the interest at present of this club is increasing share price and that's all. Depressing as it is.

2
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1
goonerfan10•

I don't know why you're so up in arms when we criticize our board and manager ?. Why don't you look at it from the perspective of fans who go to every game and the price they pay to watch a spine less Arsenal ?.

look, Arsenal Fans have been lied to which is why is why lost of then are upset. in 2014, Ivan told us we can compete wi th Bayern and Other clubs in terms of player purchases , we haven't. Before that we have to pay off our stadium debt. Before that we are building a stadium to compete with the likes of Europeans football's elite and more recently, the infamous "catalyst for change".

I agree that the market is inflated but you can always depend on scouting and prudent purchases to add the personnel needed. But don't tell us that our season ticket costs the highest in world football while we produce mediocre results, all the while our manager who has so much power he can decide whether to retire or not. Come on mate, Arsene Wenger is not Arsenal.

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Deadlyft_ChapsOP•

I'm not. Read my comment history.

I am furious about the mismanagement, but waking up this morning I just can't understand why people are angry that we didn't blow everyone out of the water immediately with unbelievably inflated bids.

I've also seen some pretty incredible posts in the past few days.

1
goonerfan10•

No one said that mate. look at our failings. Most of the club's operate in an aggressive way. if you don't have the money to spend, build an extensive scouting system and buy players no one's hear of. did we do that?, No.

When you bid 55 for Lemar and it's rejected , bid again with 62 and see what happens. it's just basic strategy. some players are worth 100m , because that money is easily recuperated in today's market .

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Deadlyft_ChapsOP•

some players are worth 100m , because that money is easily recuperated in today's market.

The whole point though is that the player isn't worth £100m if your only goal is winning football matches. We've only reached this insane point because Qatar doesn't give a damn about the game, it cares about changing hearts and minds following extensive evidence of using slave labor to build stadiums.

I would think being more annoyed about not going for N'Zonzi would be more sensible.

1
goonerfan10•

Even before Qatar got Neymar for that insane sum, there were other players who went close to 100m. Bale, Ronaldo, Pogba. We all know what Qatar is about and the slave labor being used to build their stadiums. I don't plan on watching that world cup in Qatar but its no way related to the problems at Arsenal.

Again, Arsenal fans are not upset at not spending. They are more upset at being lied to, using players in wrong positions, our tactical inefficiencies , increasing season ticket prices etc etc. Your defense of not spending insane money on players can hold true but our club is indefensable with all the points that i mentioned.

Any other manager who finds himself in Arsene wenger's position would have been either fired or gracefully retired. only at Arsenal, incompetence is rewarded. Don't tell me winning an FA cup absolves him of everything. When Leicester can win the league with just playing football and unearthing gems, why can't Arsenal?

3
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1
Askur_YggdrasilsArsène F.C.•

Great post. I commend you on your way of thinking.

I agree with you that 200mil for a football player is, quite frankly, depressing. That money could be spent on way more important things.

Which is why I'm not upset about not buying Mpabbe for over 100mil. Similar with Lemar. I'm ok with this "ethical stance".

But the issue is obviously more centered on us not competing in the transfer market with the clubs we can compete with. There are centerbacks and midfielders out there that would improve us without costing 100mil. I think we're on the same page here. It is frustrating.

This is something the younger fans should really try to understand. Just because we could inject money into the club and outspend others, doesn't mean we should. But that's a large issue.

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