Source
r/giantbomb•
Plan-Six

Patrick Reminds us all that 2017 needed Ryan Davis.

Locked. See comment.

Patrick's recent piece reminded me of one of Ryan's finest moments. When he showed everyone how to earnestly admit making a mistake with grace and humility:

"I was shocked myself when it came tumbling out, and instantly felt like the worst piece of shit in the world. Context is meaningless, because that word comes with too much of its own hurtful baggage to ever possibly justify. I want to be crystal clear here: I'm saying this not because of some corporate mandate or some fear for my job. I'm saying this because it's important to me personally that I acknowledge the significance of what was said, and to own it. I feel miserable because that's not me, and it's horrifying to me to think that someone would take that awful outburst as some sort of implicit approval to use that word. That shit is just indefensible."

The article for reference: https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/qvvgqw/pewdiepie-doesnt-deserve-a-pass-for-using-the-n-word-because-he-was-angry

Posted Sep 12, 2017, 6:06 PM UTC · locked

193147
OscarExplosion•

This whole thing instantly reminded me of the same basic thing happening with Ryan.

59
Plan-SixOP•

He is the shining example of how we all should be. Graceful when we screw up and ruthless with the block button on twitter.

45
DDSombre•

Ryan blocked me on twitter

16
Plan-SixOP•

And what did you learn?

12
DDSombre•

That RTD is savage

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
alexpiercey•

To have the honour...

6
Co-opingTowardHatred•

So I wasn't a Giant Bomb fan back then, what did Ryan do that got in trouble?

29
Plan-SixOP•

He said a homophobic slur during a live stream and immediately apologized with the quote above. He didn’t get in trouble, he did it on his own. Ryan was a deeply thoughtful person.

76
Sonofsnow•

It's weird, as a bi-man I still find myself in my most annoyed, worst moments uttering the same slur to myself. I remember it being oft used by most I knew in middle school, and I guess it just got ingrained in me...

I've gotten much better about it but, it does take a conscious concentrated effort to erase words from your vocabulary. So I understand where Ryan comes from on that, and deeply appreciate that he could own it.. its not as easy as it should be to do so for most.

Ryan was a great dude.

49
bvanplays•

Yeah I'm a similar position with the word. I'm Chinese American and English was not my first language (though by now it is my most fluent by far). So when I learned about the word "faggot" I actually thought it just meant "jerk" or "idiot" for years and years until someone actually told me it had significance outside of my group of friends when I was in college. And I felt super bad because I was telling people it wasn't a big deal just out of ignorance and no one had corrected me. I even had asked my parents but they just didn't know either (by that time I'm sure my English was better than theirs too).

So I can totally sympathize with people accidentally using words that aren't appropriate. But Ryan reacted exactly like an understanding and upstanding person would and Felix reacted like a child.

25
laris•

He really was. And I'm in the exact same boat. I was really drunk this time last year and despite knowing better, I used the word to end a political argument I got into in a bar. My girlfriend at the time was mortified and took me home pretty soon after that. Felt super shitty, but yeah, old habits.

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FlashFlood_29•

Exactly. As we become better people throughout our lives and understand the weight of our words, we are still vulnerable to exclaiming hurtful phrases and slurs. This doesn't mean we truly agree with what we are saying but that we just aren't thinking hard enough about how we channel our emotions.

2
Co-opingTowardHatred•

Thanks

2
Ikea_Man•

What was the slur? Faggot?

Is faggot like the n-word now?

-11
melotraumatic•

In that it's hurtful? Yup.

10
Ikea_Man•

everything is hurtful now in 2010+ outrage culture, I can barely keep up

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Plan-SixOP•

Yes…..don’t use that word.

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Ikea_Man•

eh, I use it with my guy friends all the time. "That looks like a nice salad, ya faggot", that sort of thing; grew up with it as a New England kid

probably wouldn't shout it out on a livestream in front of thousands of people, though

-13
stordoff•

This should play the moment it happened - the muted audio is where Ryan used the word "faggot". The difference between it and the current situation is that Ryan immediately apologised and didn't "correct" himself to "asshole" (and it not being directed at a person helps). It's obvious from his reaction that he doesn't consider slurs and insults equal, something I don't think is at all apparent from PewDiePie's reaction (especially given his previous behaviour).

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SleepyEel•

It's in the article.

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jjcregisNintendo speed metal•

I sought out the GB video in question and the difference in Ryan's and Felix's reaction is stark. Ryan immediately pumped the brakes and his remorse was evident.

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DerClogger•

Exactly. Ryan said something horrible, and he admits it right after and offers no justification. He knows it is bad and hurtful, and he formally apologizes.

Of course, it also shows that he has internalized a hurtful word in some way, but he immediately knows that said word is something that is hurtful, so he apologizes.

Felix's immediate reaction is to say that he meant to call the guy an asshole and that he forgot he was streaming.

Even if the words that these two used are both awful, derogatory words, the aftermath says it all. You got it right.

12
skewp•

I'm only a couple years younger than Ryan. Back then it was just a word middleschoolers/teenagers used without considering how unintentionally hurtful it might be. I used it a lot playing games online and with my friends.

I stopped using it as much once I got out of highschool just because I thought it was juvenile, but I didn't really think about it until I had a gay coworker who really was one of the kindest people I knew, and who had taken a lot of severe physical abuse because of his sexual orientation. At that point I realized what a shitlord I'd really been and have never said it (outside the context of discussing its usage) since. That was like 12 years ago at this point.

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ParagonEsquire•

Everyone should strive to be as self-evaluating as Ryan is in that moment. It's another demonstration of humility that the world tends to lack right now. I still don't agree with them editing the video, but I respect his feeling that he thought he had just gone too far and didn't want to hurt people and pulled back on it.

With that said, I read that entire article to get the context for the quote and it was stunningly pointless. Like, I knew what Patrick was going to say before I even knew he had written an article. The only thing notable abou the article was how he writes out the n word but calls the Ryan incident "the f word". Like did the progressive stack change without me noticing? Also he fails to grasp the slippery slope concept entirely.

For the record, we shouldn't give PewDiePie a pass, but that doesn't mean this isn't way overblown already. And frankly the Campo Santo guys actions matter more to me than PewDiePie's words.

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IdRatherBeLurking•

The only thing notable abou the article was how he writes out the n word but calls the Ryan incident "the f word"

https://twitter.com/austin_walker/status/907335310710919168

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stordoff•

I still don't agree with them editing the video

If they'd pulled the entire exchange, I might agree, but I think what was done strikes a fair balance. There's no shying away from the fact that Ryan screwed up, but avoids dropping a slur on someone who might come to the video later.

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ParagonEsquire•

I understand why they did it, I don't hate them for it, I respect it, I just don't agree it should have been done. It's just a principle thing.

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makoivis•

What's he principle at play?

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ParagonEsquire•

That you shouldn't deviate from your policy just to avoid offending people.

With that said, further thought makes me waver on this particular case. It's fair enough to argue that you shouldn't self-censor, but if the person who said it was particularly disturbed by what they said, it's a hard line to draw and say "NO! You can't have it!" Especially if it was driven by his own reflection and not outside complaints...I think I'm going to back off in this case. It might not have been something I would have done, but then, I've never been in that situation and I don't think its fair of me to judge them for that. Yeah. I'm recanting on this one.

1†
coolnamehavingguy•

And frankly the Campo Santo guys actions matter more to me than PewDiePie's words.

That should probably tell you something.

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ParagonEsquire•

That I'm a rational person who knows that what you DO matters more than what you SAY?

EDIT: Because this is 2017 and some people are like to witch hunt, I'll take the time to unequivocally add that I still think what PewDiePie said is bad. I just don't think it's as bad as what Campo Santo DID, because taking a bad action is worse than using a bad word.

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Plan-SixOP•

So they can't control their art? Their creative work? Because they gave him permission to record the lets play and they are allowed to revoke it. And taking down the video so he can't profit from it any more is how that is done.

He can make videos about fire watch, he just can't profit from them.

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ParagonEsquire•

A few big problems I want to address before we get to the opinion portion.

  1. I believe that last statement is directly contradicted by Mr. Vanaman. Quoting his last tweet: "...Our game on his channel =endorsement"
  2. For the moment, we'll assume an express license is necessary for him to stream the game. Even if we assume that's true, they aren't allowed to revoke it after the fact. They can revoke their license going forward, but they cannot retroactively ping him for the issue. DMCA claims are for violations of copyright, which those videos were NOT at the time of creation, per the express license that

It does get a little bit tricky from there. While they may not be in violation of copyright at the time of creation, if we continue to assume a license is necessary, they would be a violation of copyright going forward? Maybe? It's a complete gray area of the law as I understand it, becuase it's a weird license situation and a weirder revocation situation.

  1. DMCA claims are way more than just taking down the video. They shouldn't be reduced to such.

On to the more opinion part of it.

So they can't control their art? Their creative work?

Not to this extent, no, I don't think they can. If they had some kind of branding deal with PewDiePie they'd be well within their rights to drop him. That's fair. But that's not what we're dealing with here. We're dealing with a developer abusing the DMCA system to hurt a guy they don't like. They have the right to not like him, but that's not what the DMCA is for and it's a bad precedent. We will target you if we don't like you is a dangerous road to travel.

Because they gave him permission to record the lets play and they are allowed to revoke it

The truth of the matter is that Let's Plays are legal gray areas in the extreme. No one has tested an appellate or the Supreme Court on the matter. This is why above I talked about assuming the express license is necessary, because whether it is or not is highly debatable. It comes down to a question of whether his play-through is "transformative" enough to not supplant the original market's product. And this is just a matter of (legal) opinion. I tend to be very liberal in this area and would grant Fair Use to basically every let's play, because I don't believe in most situations watching a game is a sufficient substitute for playing a game. And while I don't watch PewDiePie to know this for sure, the one clip I saw of him playhing Firewatch had him complaining about the ending, which would be criticism, which enhances the transformative value.

This is why I think Campo Santo did the worse thing here, because I believe they abused the law to hurt someone they don't like BECAUSE they don't like him, and did so in a manner that could be chilling to the industry as a whole (and hence harm a bunch of innocent actors who didn't use racist slurs). I won't go so far as to say CS perjured themselves by filing the claim since he appears to believe this LPs exist only by the mercy of the developers, but one could make that argument, depending on the video content.

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Ikea_Man•

They're likely within the legal right, but this is such a blatant case of virtue signaling for attention that I'm glad people are reacting badly to it.

It sets a really bad precedent.

-1†
FatalFirecrotch•

How many shitty things does he have to do before we just say he is likely a shitty person?

4
ParagonEsquire•

I dunno, that's up to you, I guess. I don't follow PDP and only see him when he flares up in controversies. His Subscription "I'm gonna close down my channel" thing was dumb, the wall street journal stuff was way out of context, and he apparently uses the n-word casually which is a shitty thing. If that's enough for you to pass judgment on the guy i guess you can do that.

I'm not saying he's good. I'm not trying to defend him. He said a bad word and shouldn't have said it.Is that enough to make him a shitty person? Eh. I feel we're too quick to judge people on the internet, but perhaps I am foolish and too forgiving. Hard to say.

7
frupic•

That I'm a rational person who knows that what you DO matters more than what you SAY?

Not in this day and age.

1†
jordhaI LOVE MONDAYS•

It's articles like this that make me glad we had ryan, we need to aspire to be more like him, for good and bad.

He has humility, and understands actions having consequences.

11
moonmeh•

He wasn't perfect because nobody is, but by god he tried his best to be the the most fantastic person out there though action and reflection

9
Reflex2011•

I have to say the word that Ryan said was wrong and I don't want anyone jumping on me thinking it ok, but what Pewdiepie said is quite a bit harder to excuse.

10†
bvanplays•

I would disagree. You can't know the context of when/where they originally developed their speech habits or the context of the words they use. Someone can legitimately grow up not thinking that "nigger" is that bad of a word.

But at a certain point you will learn about it and should understand it in a greater context. At that point you should be making an effort to not say it and be aware of the consequences of the actions when you do.

So I don't blame him for saying it. Accidents can happen even with speech. But his reaction was not appropriate nor representative of a mature understanding adult. He reacted like a spoiled child, which wouldn't be notable in and of itself normally, but he has a viewership of millions which now makes it the business of society and no longer just him as an individual.

33
Plan-SixOP•

Although I can agree that some people might not know the context, it is hard to escape that context on the internet. The article and folks at waypoint talked to people from Sweden, who said that they were all aware of the context of the n-word and why it is so offensive. That it is taught in schools and cannot be escaped on the internet.

6†
PSNdragonsandlasers...nani?•

I used to play a lot of Last of Us multiplayer with a dude from Sweden. His frequent dropping of the n-bomb was the main reason I stopped playing with him.

Just an anecdote, but it's why that section of the article really rang true for me.

4
AliveJesseJames•

Even putting that aside, there's a difference between a single dude on Sweden who might actually be literally culturally unaware of the reasoning as compared to a massively successful Youtuber who has been all around the world due to that celebrity.

10
bvanplays•

That's fair. I was more trying to also encompass the whole "I'm a stupid kid who does things without understanding their consequence" attitude that many people get from being internet kids. As evident of the thousands of kids on Xbox Live just going to town on whatever racial slurs they've learned so far.

It doesn't excuse saying it, but it at least we can agree that it definitely can be used on accident just because of the nature of how you used to use it as a kid.

Anyways, I'm not really interested in getting into a "which derogatory term is worse" argument. I think in general we can apply the "rules" of how we handle any of these words across the board, even if the level of outrage is different.

3†
FatalFirecrotch•

That's fair. I was more trying to also encompass the whole "I'm a stupid kid who does things without understanding their consequence" attitude that many people get from being internet kids. As evident of the thousands of kids on Xbox Live just going to town on whatever racial slurs they've learned so far.

Pewdiepie isn't some stupid kid. He is a guy in his mid 20's who makes millions of dollars doing thins.

3
Gundea•

I think it's fair to say that we here in Sweden have a different history and relationship to that particular racial slur.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chokladboll

The section there about names in Swedish is one of the most glaring examples, it wasn't seen as anything really bad until very very recently.

That said, the Swedish version of the word is still pronounced differently than the English one, and to curse or use slurs in a foreign language always requires more thought and effort than in your native tongue. It just goes to show how these kids of words are common in his vocabulary when he's not streaming.

2
Reflex2011•

Sure but like I said it's easier to excuse someone for slipping out the word "faggot" then "fucking nigger" rightly or wrongly it's just the case.

-12
TSPSweeney•

... Why?

18
Diarrhea_Bubblebath_•

English isn't his first language. A lot of Swedish people pick up English by consuming English media, taking with English people, etc. When you play videogames with unrestricted voice and text chat for a living I expect you're going to have things enter your vocabulary whether you want them to or not. When in daily life you don't use the language at all with other people face to face, you're going to get a distorted understanding of what's okay to say and what's not.

I used to listen to an enormously racist and offensive internet radio show (to laugh at it). I've accidentally used a few of that guy's insults in real life.

-2†
Plan-SixOP•

The dude is like 27 years old and runs an international media channel that 57 million people watch. Maybe if this was the first time he did something. But we already went through having his fans, which are teens and kids, send him swastikas. He used up his free pass.

15
IdRatherBeLurking•

I used to listen to an enormously racist and offensive internet radio show (to laugh at it). I've accidentally used a few of that guy's insults in real life.

I'm not certain how that makes it any more acceptable.

7
stordoff•

It's entirely possible to be influenced by context and accidentally use a slur without intending it as such, true (I know after extended sessions of GTAV I had phrases cross my mind that I would be mortified to use). That's why I find his reaction more important - if you don't follow it up with a strenuous and sincere apology (and he obviously recognised it was an issue from his change of language/partial apology), that's when it really starts to become more of a problem.

Also, if you run an outlet with as large an audience as this, especially one that skews young, you should be far more conscious of the language you choose to use than most people.

3
Reflex2011•

Like I said thats fair enough lol, but im saying letting the word "faggot" slip out isn't as easy to excuse then "fucking nigger".

-11
bvanplays•

Yeah you're probably right.

-3
myrightarmkindahurts•

That is also an actual apology, unlike the "response" from PewDiePie that completely missed the point of it all and just shows that PewDiePie is only sorry for himself and only because his actions might negatively effect himself.

10
jravn•

It broke my heart to see some people in certain forums proclaim that Ryan was a, and I quote, "closeted homophobe" because of this mistake. They equated him to PewDiePie, a person who has have a long list of use of racial slurs and of openly hateful attitudes towards specific ethnic and cultural groups.

PewDiePie can only dream about being as adult and responsible for his actions, and their consequences, as Ryan was. He did something that he shouldn't have, owned it up and asked for forgiveness honestly and sincerely.

RIP, duder. We all miss you so much.

2†
V0xusMODUmbasa•

Ok! I'm not going to moderate a fucking thread that is debating if using slurs are ok or not.

Guys, I don't give two fingerfucks what you do outside your r/giantbomb life. But whilst you are here and choose to participate in these "important" discussions, I ask that you be cool to one another.

1
Ikea_Man•

I'm sure this is an unpopular opinion, but articles like this are personally why I'm glad Patrick doesn't work for Giant Bomb anymore.

This SJW shit bores me, I just want to hear about video games

-17
Plan-SixOP•

I think people who whine about SJW are so fucking basic it’s painful.

24
Ikea_Man•

you seem a little too invested in this topic friend

only person I see whining here is you

-4†
Plan-SixOP•

“I know you are, but what am I?” – Really? We on the playground now?

14
Ikea_Man•

I'm rubber and you're glue

-9
fearoftheskyGet your fuckin' worms outta my fuckin' Soulcalibur!•

If you're using the term "SJW" without irony, the problem lies with you, and you alone.

20
Ikea_Man•

writing a 5 page article about a streamer saying the "n-word" once is the definition of PC culture/SJW crap to me

it's a real term, regardless of how over-used it gets on the Internet

5†
fearoftheskyGet your fuckin' worms outta my fuckin' Soulcalibur!•

Coolest of cool stories, bro.

7
Ikea_Man•

it wasn't a cool story, but they wrote it anyways because Vice

7
GirTheRobot•

Campo Santo's decision to use the equivalent of a nuclear bomb on YouTube is extreme, but worries over the slippery slope seem overblown. Don't use that word, and you're okay! It's a low bar.

In other words: "Use the language we tell you you're allowed to use, and no other language, AND YOU'RE FINE. WE WON'T SILENCE YOU, THEN"

Oh, Patrick...

-19
Plan-SixOP•

It is weird that a company wouldn't want to be associated with someone who drops the n-word. Not that weird, since Disney did the same thing, canceled the agreement they had with PDP.

I love how people get all upset when companies decide to control their creative works that they totally own and do not need to let people stream.

22
Darknezz•

I think it's a rather interesting question. Sure, Campo Santo owns the intellectual property rights to their product, as it exists and as they sell it. Do they own the intellectual property rights to my experience playing that game? Do they own the rights to a viewer's experience watching mine and hearing my thoughts?

Intellectual property rights are a weird-ass rabbit hole. I just don't want to see them tested in courts on these merits, where suddenly we're in a position of defending some asshole using the n-word to insult someone.

5
FatalFirecrotch•

Every lawyer says that streaming games wouldn't hold up in court. It isn't because they own your thoughts or experiences, but they do own the software you are using and can prevent you from using it for any profit.

11
ElectronicBacon•

poof, deleted

2
Plan-SixOP•

Yes. You are not allowed to profit from making videos of their game if they don't want you to. This is basically settled law.

7
GirTheRobot•

Well actually Disney canceled their agreement with PDP BEFORE the WSJ article came out which just makes everything weird and bizarre and makes you ask a whole bunch of questions.

And you're leaving out the important detail that it's not the fact that he said the word "nigger", it's the fact that he's white and said the word "nigger".

-13
Plan-SixOP•

The WJS asked Disney for comment before publishing or simply found out about the videos while the reporter was digging into it. It isn't really that weird. It isn't like those videos were secret.

White people can't use that word because it was used by racist white people in the past as a tool of repression. That is how language works. You don't get to pick how word work or what they mean to other people. This is not a complex thing, you don't get to use that word if you are white.

13
Raugi•

Nothing prevents publishers or developers to already do that. Streams or let's plays are very likely not falling under fair use. Nothing changed.

5
[deleted]•

[deleted]

-36
Plan-SixOP•

Living in the shadow of Ryan David as a totally fictional person.

18
[deleted]•

[deleted]

-15
Plan-SixOP•

Clayton Bigsby isn’t real. Ryan Davis is a legend.

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[deleted]•

[deleted]

-16