In the end the Ring was his downfall, and it seems risky to split off a part of yourself. Would he still have been able to conquer middle earth, and it would have just taken him longer?
Posted Oct 20, 2017, 3:30 AM UTC
In the second age, no. He lost to the last alliance even with the Rings.
In the third age? Yeah, he didn't need the one ring to win, his armies were big enough for that. The quest to destroy the ring was a assassination
Sauron absolutely needed the Ring in the Third Age to win. Without it he wouldn't have had the Nine and he wouldn't have had the Witch King, and Angmar (the Witch King's kingdom) is never founded. Without Angmar, the Dunedain (Aragorn's blood line) are never scattered due the fall of Arthedain (a kingdom in the North). This also mean that Rhudaur (a kingdom next to Arthedain) never becomes a vassal of Angmar, Amon Sul (Weathertop from the movies where Frodo is stabbed) is never abandoned, and King Arvedui (last king of Arthedain) is never lost at sea. It took all nine of the Ring Wraiths to command a force for a siege that lasted 2 years to take Minas Ithil (big green ghost tower in the movies, didn't always look like that). Without them, Minas Morgul (renamed from Minas Ithil) is never founded, so the line of Anarion (Aragorns very great grand pappy) never fails in Gondor.
All of these things mean Sauron never get his Palantir (crystal ball works like a recon drone and a radio for anywhere), a devastating repercussion to his armies might. On top of this, Arnor (Original Kingdom in the North, comprised of the 2 northern kingdoms mentioned above and one other) and Gondor now have, at the very least, 5 Palantir working for them. Aragorn is still able to make his claim to the Throne, being a descendant of both Isildur and Anarion, and does not have to wait for the war to finish to reunite the Realm of Arnor with Gondor. Sauron is now cut off in the north as well as the south. He has no way of mobilizing troops without taking the gap of Rohan.
He does not take the gap of Rohan because Sarumon is never tempted through the Palantir nor by the influence of the One Ring. Theodan never falls under his influence, and instead of needing to retreat to Helms Deep they immediately mobilize to Gondor. The combined kingdoms of man aided by Palantir allowing instantaneous communication between the North and South deliver merciless slaughter to Saurons forces inside of Mordor. This is largely due again to the survival of Minas Ithil, and Sauron having to work from the ground up when he returns to Mordor. The Nine had actually been sent way ahead of him and prepped the land, raised forces and even conquered parts of Gondor on their own before Sauron returned there.
So TL;DR is Sauron doesn't have the armies he had without the One Ring.
Edited some names in the first part to make it more friendly to movie watchers only
It seems I wasn't clear what I meant.
As I said in my other comment, I meant as if the ring was never found in the third age, not that it was never made. What I meant was that the ring could have been lost at sea, sauron would still have won the war of the ring. You are totally correct in that without the nine sauron could not have done what he did, and angmar was key in weakening the west.Without the ring he also would never have subverted and destroyed numenor, so that's a even large problem than arnor
After I posted I figured you mightve meant that he didn't need possession of the ring, but the ring still existed when you were talking about the third age! And I agree with that assessment. Even with Gandalf mankind put all their chips into the destroy the Ring gambit, if that wasn't possible they would've really been in trouble
Well basically he wouldn't have needed it in the 3rd age if the third age stayed the same as it was even without the rings having ever existed. But since the rings actually brought about all the relevant circumstances that led to the 3rd age being the way it was he wouldn't have made it without the rings due to reasons stated above.
He wouldn't have the nazgul or Saruman without the one ring though. Also, Isildur would have been alive longer and the three could have been used without worry.
All of that would tip the scales significantly in favor of the forces of good. Would that be enough? Don't know, but you are looking at a totally different war.
I mean, he wouldn't need to find the ring to win the war of the ring. It could have been hidden in the shire or with Tom bombadil or thrown into the ocean for 1000 years and he would still have won the war.
I didn't mean as if the ring had never been made in the first place
Fair enough.
After reading all these comments I have decided to watch the whole trilogy over the weekend. Sometimes reddit is great!
To fully answer this question, one that surely has touched the minds of every great lord and riddler across Middle Earth, one must first understand what the One Ring truly is, and why it was forged to begin with. While scholars fight endlessly over minutia and details, all will eventually agree on two major points, the first of which is Sauron's hatred, envy, and fear of the Elves, specifically the Noldor who make up the great western kingdoms of the Elves.
The Eldar are a power in Middle Earth that Sauron cannot outright dominate in his usual ways. They are too old, too wise, too careful to fall for his deceiving ways, unlike Man and the Dwarves, who have both fallen for his deceptions time and time again. They are too powerful to crush, hosting some of the most powerful and skilled warriors of this world in the current ages. And above all else, they can challenge him directly and win. It was Luthien, after all, who effortlessly broke him and his fortress during the First Age after he had toyed with her beloved Beren and the wise Finrod Felagund. It was the Elves who had brought down his master Morgoth and destroyed all he had built during the War of Wrath. And it was the Elves that prevented him, the sole remaining Maiar of note in Middle Earth after the Host of the Valar returned to Valinor, from conquering what was so rightfully his. So he turned ever more to his deceiving nature and approached the situation differently: rather than be the wormtongue to bring them ruin, he would simply trick them into a situation in which he could dominate them, by having their lords wear the rings he taught them to make before making one of his own to dominate all others. Had it not been for Celebrimbor's hand in forging the elven rings Sauron might have won outright in the Second Age, but that brings us to the second point: why would an Elf ever want a ring of power to begin with?
During my studies I have spent much time among the Elves, writing down their knowledge and stories and chronicling their feats and history. And through that experience I can say definitively that they are not what they once were. Nothing is, but it's easiest to see in these immortal eyes. The feats of strength, heroism, love, purity, craftsmanship, all of it has faded from its former glory and will continue to do so until the end of this world. The elves of the First Age built cities that dwarfed mountains, fought Balrogs by the handful, wove magic that shattered fortresses, and captured the light of creation in three gemstones of unimaginable beauty and splendor, one of which we still see today in the night sky. Men once strode nine paces tall, fighting trolls as we would fight orcs today, living centuries before passing on, but no longer. Every day of life degrades us all further, breaks us further, loses a bit of the splendor of the world just by existing. The elves fear this, they run from this, they want it to stop. Everything to stay the same. And that is what the rings of power offer: stability. The great elven kingdoms remain untouched by the ravages of time, a safehaven for those who refuse to sail to the West.
Sauron knows this, and fears it too. It is why his master failed and perished, it is why he will fail and perish as well if he follows the same path. To change the world, one must put effort and power into it, and that power cannot be reclaimed afterwards... unless you pour yourself into an unbreakable ring. His power will not fade, will not degrade, so long as he wields it. Sauron is as strong today with the One Ring as he was the day he forged it thousands of years ago. It is the method of endurance that lets him win in an endless war of attrition with the elves and men. If it is not undone, it will undo us all.
So, to answer your question more succinctly, no. Sauron would have failed and burnt himself out trying to conquer Middle Earth without the One Ring to keep his power contained in a single vessel. And if it is not destroyed, his long gambit will finally pay off.
--Aldair, Scholar of Gondor
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(I am assuming that you are talking about the movies, including the prequels)
Sauron always had a chance, he just made the wrong decision over and over and over again.
His ring-wraiths were complete morons - they couldn't sense the ring when it was less than 10 feet away from them.
He has lots of dragons (or whatever he calls them, I'm calling em dragons) but generally doesn't use them.
He has access to a lot of potential allies - Balrogs, giant-mountain-golems, Shelob, etc. but doesn't make any meaningful attempts at courting them to fight alongside him. Imagine if the Fellowship met that stupid Balrog out in an open field?
HE HAS LITERALLY NO MEANINGFUL GUARDS AT MOUNT DOOM.
Why would you guard a volcano?
Because if someone takes my jewelry in there, I die. That's why I would guard a volcano.
Bah, who would want to destroy the One Ring?
Oh, right, nobody, it's physically impossible for them to choose to do so.
No, the bigger problem is if they figure out how to use it, and have someone strong enough to do so. They could unite the forces of the West against you, and even cause issues with your control of your own forces.
Yes, but... what if one were to try, and then trip and fall into the lava? We should post at least a few guards.
BALROGS IN AN OPEN FIELD NED
Even with the rings, he lost to the Last Alliance.
He always had the chance to conquer Middle-Earth, but without the One Ring he'd have been as killable as any other Maia taking a physical form. And without the Nine, and specifically the Witch King, the Third Age would have been very different. Arnor probably never falls. Which means when he eventually re-emerges in Mordor, Gondor will never stand alone. So, it makes things a lot harder for him at every step.
And even once he is defeated, things are better for the world at large. Nobody relied on the Three for their nations to exist, so there's no sudden decline of the elves. Saruman never betrayed the White Council out of desire for the One Ring. Hobbits can carry on not caring about the worries of the world.
I thought the Elves specifically treasured the Three Rings of Power because they somewhat slowed the decline of their power and influence in middle Earth?
You choose a dvd for tonight