r/Bitcoin•
350365879

A proposal about how 2x attack BTC

Turns out Chinese BTC community and reddit community differs a lot.

The article below is a translation of a hot article in 8btc.com. I will try my best to keep its original meaning and, hopefully, help the cross-boarder community to understand each other, better.

Thoughts before reading the article: Devils are trying their best to eavestrop the wire, then we have crypto currency. Devils are trying their best to centralize its power, so what we do?

======article starts here====== original link: http://8btc.com/thread-86823-1-1.html written at: 2017-10-26

在一场战斗中,首先要分清敌友,在这场分叉之战中,BCC和2X都是被大区块派支持的,所以他们是盟友;另一方盟友就是Core核心开发小组和BTG所代表的小区块派。但是BTG实在太弱,基本上可以看作是三国演义。

In this battle, we need to first understand the enemys and the friends. During the forking, BCC and 2X are all supported by "larger block" community. So they are allies. On the other hand, the Core and BTG are supporting small block size, so they are on the same side. Because BTG is so weak, we can regard this as "Romance of the Three Kindoms"(a famous Chinese historical fiction)

据说因为BCC和2X都是大区块,会在分叉的时候争夺算力,有人主张舍弃其中之一。因为BCC区块更大,并且2X被大区块支持者所反对的Segwit污染过,大部分大区块支持者认为应该抛弃2X,集中扶持BCC。而且这种选择在调查中表现得非常明显。貌似有理,其实是缺乏想象力。这也说明币圈中短视的人多,有战略远见的人少。我觉得这种人应该把三国演义读十遍。 在一场战争中首先抛弃自己的盟友而独自面对敌人是愚蠢而不可理喻的。而且在这次分叉中。2X才是主角,BCC虽然有很多优势,但还太年轻,先当当配角慢慢成长。 It seems that both BCC and 2X are all for large block size, so they will compete for hashrate, and some suggest to give up one of them. (A long logical reasoning here I don't want to translate.) Any way, 2X is the main actor here.

本次战斗,2X承担着抢夺BTC品牌的重任。而BCC因为已经有了名字,有很多投资者在先前抛掉了BCC。BCC想直接上位树敌太多,难度太大。BCC在一开始就定位为保留中本聪思想的火种,以防NYA没有得到执行。在决战没有失败之前,没有道理先启用备份方案。 In this battle, the goal for 2X is to "seize" the brand for BTC. And since BCC already its name, it's hard for invester to accept it (as BTC). BCC is just a backup, incase NYA is not executed as espected. So there is no reason to use the backup before we lose the battle.

因为夺取BTC品牌。其价值远远大于BCC价格大幅拉升,短期来看,只有1X和2X有资格染指BTC品牌。BCC成功的道路还很漫长。而本次分叉之战,却有毕其功于一役的机会,战略上来说没有道理舍近求远。万一2X方案失败,再启动BCC上位也不迟。本来两场战斗,只胜一场即可。如果预先就放弃其中一次战斗,就降低了一半的大区块理想的成功率。 Seizing the brand of BTC is far more valuable than boosting BCC's price. (To lazy to translate)

当真正分叉的时候,如何避免这两种大区块的算力争夺呢?方案还是有的。 How to prevent BCC and 2X from wasting hashrate during the battle. There are ways.

BCC和2X要分工协作,吸引不同的算力。BCC负责吸引追逐短期挖矿利润的矿工。2X负责活下来并快速出快,并且让1X无法出块或者出快很慢。必要时可以采取一切技术手段。这样就把中间派争取过来了,化敌为友,大大提高了2X胜出的几率 我们可以做个精确的预案. BCC and 2X need to to cooperate:

  1. BCC should be in charge of attracting miners who wants short-term profits; while 2) 2X does its best to suvive and create new blocks (and prevent 1X(he mean BTC) from creating new blocks or in a very slow speed). If necessary, we can try any (dirty) technical method (I indicate it as dust attack), to mislead the swinging 3rd party. More details of the plan is as follow:

11.13: Start BCC hard fork, the goal is to change the EDA mining difficulty, so that BCC mining difficulty could be adjust more smoothly.

11.14: Complete BCC hard fork, and keep BCC vs BTC mining difficulty at a low ratio, 0.04-0.07, which makes it easier to boost the BCC price.

11.15: Increase BCC price gradually, so as to attract more peaople mine BCC rather than BTC.

11.16: keep boosting BCC price. (I guess is similar to yesterday, to reduce the hashrate of BTC)

11.17-18: Almost the same as previously. Keep make fewer people mining BTC.

11.19: When 2x hard fork starts. Strongly boosting BCC price, so as to make sure only hardliners remain in BTC. At the same time, apply dust attack on BTC and make sure it's super hard to create new blocks. In extreme case, it might "lost coins". It's almost sure that there would be panic sell at this moment, so that the price of BTC would drops. 2X would also drops, however, its aleady in a low range, and if valued in BTC, its value should increase. The goal is to make mining BTC less profitable.

11.20 and comming week: keep mining 2X, and make sure its insainly slow to mine new BTC blocks. (Assuming the Core switch POW to POS, hard to translate).

11.22 All NYA supporter claim that "We are real BTC." Urging all exchanges to accept 2X as the "Real BTC".

(Words about it might make people confuse about when two groups of people claiming themselves as "real BTC", but it does not matter. This is what BTC should come through, and future is "Bright")

11月13日,BCC启动硬分叉,目标是修改EDA挖矿难度算法,使得BCC挖矿难度的调整更加连续平滑。 14日,BCC硬分差完成。BCC对比BTC的难度系数应该保持在一个较低的水平,0.04-0.07之间比较适合。因为这样拉升价格的成本最低。 15日。在交易市场逐渐拉升BCC的价格。使得挖BCC的利润逐渐高于挖BTC。吸引没有明确立场、单纯逐利的矿工转向挖取BCC。 16日,继续拉升BCC的价格。并加快BCC的挖矿速度,因为出块太快,BCC的挖矿难度系数会增加。如果想吸引这些浮动的矿工,就必须继续拉升BCC的价格,使得挖BCC比挖BTC有更高的利润。留住并吸引更多的矿工来挖BCC。 17-18日继续保持以上策略,并且让矿工、比特币用户、比特币投资者都知晓这样的策略。这样会促进市场加大BCC的买盘。拉升BCC价格的代价会更小。 就是为什么要提前三天拉升BCC价格的原因。因为策略从实施并广为人知需要时间。 19日,从分叉正式开始的时间算起,BCC开始一波强劲的拉升。吸引所有愿意挖BCC的人都不离开,分散算力。结果是只剩下1X和2X的坚定支持算力去各自挖矿。坚定支持大区块的算力,分出其中其中保证BCC的上述策略能够稳步实施。其他的全部算力都去挖2X,同时发动适度强度的粉尘攻击。兵者凶也,谁都不愿意打仗。要打仗就必须要打赢,采取一切有利于赢的策略。不要受道德绑架,比特币不需要道德。比特币需要的是强壮、稳定和快速。 这时候1X出块会非常难,出块速度会很慢,并且可能会出现丢币。市场应该出现恐慌。BT1的价格会急速下滑。BT2的价格当然也会降低。但因为BT2价格本来已经很低,下降的幅度应该有限。如果按照占比特币权重来计算。BT2反而应该明显上升;‌这样,挖2X的矿工的亏损会减少。 算力攻击不需要用力过猛,保证1X出块很慢即可,最重要的是持续足够长的时间。如果有多余的算力,可以拿一部分出来挖BT1,挖出来就在市场上抛,进一步打压BT1的价格。补贴挖2X的损失。 ‌在后面的一个星期或更长的时间内,‌保持1X出块速度很慢,打击1X支持者的信心。比特币在这个期间的使用体验会很差,比特币的总价会持续下跌,其中BT1的部分会下降得更快。这就会‌逼迫Core核心小组更改1X的挖矿算法。如果这种,1X的算法已经完全不兼容以前的矿机。这就导致事实上Core核心小组已经改变了BT1,而这样的改变将使其自动脱离比特币社群的认同。极端情况下,有可能逼迫BT1改为POS. ‌22日,2X稳定出块,并且挖矿难度明显高于1X。而1X出块极其缓慢,挖矿难度明显低于2X,这样已经持续三天了。‌所有坚定支持NYA的矿场和交易所以及其他相关团体正式宣布:根据中本聪主张的难度以及区块高度原则,认定2X是BTC。并敦促所有的交易所支持这个事实。这一步骤必须要有,大区块派在宣传上比起善于社会化营销的Core核心小组要差很多,必须补这一课。 支持1X的群体当然不会认可,所以‌在这个时间段内会引起BTC品牌混淆和账面经济损失。但这是必经的阶段,是因为Core核心小组的固执带给比特币圈不得不承受的痛苦。‌那么,让我们勇敢地承受它。等这一切都结束。比特币的价格会一骑绝尘。‌短时间的损失对老韭菜来说,都不过是家常便饭而已。 最重要的是经过这次战役,‌比特币重新获得了发展的自由。自由之物终归自由。

Posted Oct 28, 2017, 2:55 AM UTC

173131
MrPlumpbusredditor for 5 weeks•

That's a fucking hostile takeover

47
350365879OPredditor for 3 weeks•

I have no idea whether if the attack could works (In theory or in reality orz). Would be great if more brains think about it.

13
cm9kZW8Kredditor for 3 months•

The only part that is in doubt is the "dust attack".

Spam attacks are a double edged sword: spend too little on fees and they have no effect. Spend too much and they incentivize miners to switch back to btc. So perhaps they art not talking about spam attacks.

Next they could try to bloat the utxo. While annoying, it is unlikely to knock too many nodes offline. Less well designed chains like ETH already use much larger working sets.

So unless they have come up with a new form of attack, i dont see much here.

That said, this is still the most serious assault on bitcoin since it began. We really need more widespread control of mining; hopefully these new Japanese chips will help spread out control somewhat.

2
CubicEarth•

Just run your own node, there can be no takeovers. Mine what you prefer, there can be no takeovers.

Please afford others the same freedoms as you enjoy.

9
350365879OPredditor for 3 weeks•

thank you for ur sharing. Makes me have larger picture on it. :D

1
easypak-100redditor for 3 months•

i have freedoms i don't enjoy, like stealing your stuff while you are at work

it's called applying ethics to restrain myself

0
NickT300redditor for 4 weeks•

Who allowed the majority of Bitcoin Mining to happen in Asia? It should be spread around, so all can vote in a fair manner.

1
mgbyrnc•

pretty insane dude. thanks for translating this

31
350365879OPredditor for 3 weeks•

sounds crazy, but seems like someone undertand cryptocurrency better than me...

What's more, what coinbase announce worries me.

10
gaici_comredditor for 2 weeks•

I am reasonable and in peace. I invest in BTC and BCH. I really get very good benefits from both of them.

1
Coinosphere•

Do we have any intel on who wrote this and who's ear he has? Is this Jihan's strategist or some kid dreaming?

I'm certainly not surprised to hear the tired, old three kingdoms strategy brought up again, but I'm not convinced they can do much with this kind of attack unless they really got a ton of people involved in both the BCC & B2X communities. (And I don't really see any evidence that there is a B2X community in the first place.)

19

This is just a play to the miners. When it comes time, money talks and bullshit walks. Fuck hostile takeovers, the miners are going to mine the most profitable chain. Full stop.

12
Markers34•

Agreed. Bitcoins that are mined in 24 hours are worth $10m. Miners will leave that on the table? Nope.

9

Yeah. Miners already broke their promise with Btrash so we’re all supposed to believe they will keep their promise and mine 2x? At a loss? Not going to happen.

11
kingo86•

I know it's not likely... but we have to stay vigilant and not underestimate the vitriolic companies forcing their altcoin down our throats.

8
easypak-100redditor for 3 months•

if they did they math and are convinced of the profits of short term investment you can bet your ass they would

6
gaici_comredditor for 2 weeks•

Yes, they will mine most profitable chain and then sell it to balance the loss of BT2 chain. Just like I mentioned in this article

3
easypak-100redditor for 3 months•

unless they are convinced a short term 'investment' in alt mining will have an almost certain probability of massive profits after the short term is done

i don't know if they are thinking it's feasible, but there are ways to simulate such things, and china has how many hundreds of millions of computer programmers?

2
350365879OPredditor for 3 weeks•

It's probably a dreaming, but as long as someone "dreams' it to happen, why wouldn't a profit holder (The centralized miner) think about this.

I think this is a great chance to see whether if 51% attack really works. Ps: this might not be a so-called 51% attack, but to my understanding, it's similar.

2
Coinosphere•

This is actually much worse than a 51% attack. In a 51A, you can really only steal from targeted addresses that you mine, and only then if you can hold the lead for so long that it can't be undone. That's really a theft of money against selected bitcoin holders...

With Segwit2x, it's not about stealing money at all. It's about making bitcoin work differently than it did before... Getting a new protocol in there so bitcoin works in favor of different people.

That means that if this coup is successful, then a proven way to change bitcoin's 21m limit or any other rule has been demonstrated. We should all expect it's only a matter of time until something like a govt comes along and does that, perhaps to force KYC rules into the code or simply to destroy it.

4
gaici_comredditor for 2 weeks•

I have more proofs about my prediction. I will write them later. yesterday and today they pump BCH price also a proof just like I said.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

0
tofuspider•

How can BTC price drop a lot if users can't get their BTC to exchanges to sell as txs are slow to confirm from no/slow new blocks mined on the BTC chain.

Meanwhile, hodlers are happily selling their B2X on exchanges since there is quicker confirmation blocks for txs on 2x chain driving the price of B2X down even faster than normal.

17
cacamalaca•

Many BTC will be on exchanges when the fork occurs.

Deposits and withdrawals will be suspended on both chains for 24-72 hours, or longer.

3
350365879OPredditor for 3 weeks•

and i guess its happening?

1
whatnowdog•

That is going to make a lot of BTC owners and supporters mad.

1
gaici_comredditor for 2 weeks•

In exchange platform, sell or buy bitcoin need not real transaction on the chain. Do you really not know that ?

3
tofuspider•

Small bagholders of BTC on exchanges doesn't crash the price. Large bagholders aren't going to risk putting majority of their coins on exchanges before the fork occurs just to sell BTC for B2X immediately after the fork.

2
gaici_comredditor for 2 weeks•

the plan start more quick than I predict. You dont know the big miners can bear a short time loss, even very big loss.

2
Qewbicle•

It doesn't matter how many coins are in an exchange. I give an extreme, but valid example.
If everyone removed all their buy orders and set it at $1 USD, then someone sold 0.01 BTC into that price. The market price for all BTC at that exchange is $1.
Similarly, if everyone removed all their sell orders and agreed to place the next sells no lower than $1,000,000 USD, then bought or sold at that price. All BTC's are $1,000,000 USD each.
This shows that the motion of coins onto or from an exchange are not necessary. It just takes some trying to short, while some trying to get back in, then roles reversing. This can go either direction, up or down.

1
NickT300redditor for 4 weeks•

Great analogy. Agreed.

1
Qewbicle•

It doesn't matter how many coins are in an exchange. I give an extreme, but valid example.
If everyone removed all their buy orders and set it at $1 USD, then someone sold 0.01 BTC into that price. The market price for all BTC at that exchange is $1.
Similarly, if everyone removed all their sell orders and agreed to place the next sells no lower than $1,000,000 USD, then bought or sold at that price. All BTC's are $1,000,000 USD each.
This shows that the motion of coins onto or from an exchange are not necessary. It just takes some trying to short, while some trying to get back in, then roles reversing. This can go either direction, up or down.

1

Sooo.. If you still own BCC - you know now when to dump them xD

10
BitFlava•

when is the time to dump bcc in ur opinion?

1
S_Lowry•

Is this why Coinbase is keeping it's users away from their BCH? To keep them from selling and crashing the value?

10
norfbayboy•

That's my thinking about the NYA supporting JAXX wallet.

3
exab•

Sounds like a good plan pipe dream.

8
Blorgsteamredditor for 5 weeks•

That's a declaration of WAR!

We need #UASF again!

8
kixunil•

Just run a full node and dump 2X.

8
MassiveSwell•

Man this shit's better than reading ZeroHedge at a prepper convention!

8
eustan•

Yeah, whatever.

I'm all in as far as my crypto funding is concerned, but should they manage to crash the price of BTC, I'll find more money to buy BTC.

Bring it on, shitcoiners!

8
sirZofSwagger•

I think I am with you on that. Crash the price, it will be back.

2
NickT300redditor for 4 weeks•

lol Agreed.

1
GanjaFarmer23•

There are whales on BTC too. Maybe Mircea will resurface, lol.

If this is even possible, they're doing us a favour, BTC has completely failed then IMO.

7
scientastics•

Completely failed investors and HODLers... Yeah... To the tune of 1000s of percent gains. Wow, such fail.

3
NickT300redditor for 4 weeks•

BTC only failed due to lacking, slow & expensive transactions. If they can make BTC run more efficient for example, I don't mind paying transaction fees so long as the actual transaction is FastR.

1
scientastics•

Lightning Network. http://lightning.network/

1
strikylucredditor for 3 months•

he's not talking about your fiat gains...

1
GanjaFarmer23•

Not really sure what you mean, but if this is doable imagine what governments will do in the future. If BTC isn't completely resistant to these attacks, that's a fail no? It hasn't failed so far, and i don't believe it will now either.

1
scientastics•

Maybe I misunderstood your earlier comment too. I thought you were saying that Bitcoin has already failed for whales.

1
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
Nub19•

Moreso that it's failed as a cryptocurrency.

1
gaici_comredditor for 2 weeks•

No, I am very good investors ,I get 2500% profit from BTC and 300% profit from BCH, I think I will get more from BCH even in this year.

1
whatnowdog•

If 2x wins this battle it will be the beginning of the end of Bitcoin. BTC will lose its advantage of being the top coin and people will move to Litecoin or some other alt coin.

I would not want to own a coin that was controlled by big miners in China.

6
gaici_comredditor for 2 weeks•

I dont think so ,that will be a new start of bitcoin. miners are full competition market.

-1
jimythetulip•

If this is successful it's just going to mean more shitcoin splits into the future. This is a disaster waiting to happen.

1
entole•

This is the real plan right here, clearly this is why there has been no development on s2x and J.Garzik is working on his own project

4
kmicic77•

I don't know about you guys, but nobody can force me to use/buy B2X coin. Bitcoiners are a well educated community and know what the real Bitcoin is. Chinese want to make original chain unusable after fork and it will end really bad.. for them.

4
gaici_comredditor for 2 weeks•

I think bitcoin is no a thing about nationality. I never care about my nationality or race when I buy BTC or BCC. I think it is so ridiculous when a bitcoiner talk about Racism

0†
kmicic77•

Racism? I talk about facts. I'm not saying Chinese people are inferior to the rest of the world. I admire Chinese people and respect their contribution to the Bitcoin space. They played a big positive role in the past. It's just sad to hear that the miners with support of large part of the community want to hijack the Bitcoin brand for themselves. Bitcoin is international and should stay international.

5
ROGER_CHOCS•

Sounds like english is his second language, I think he used racism incorrectly. I think he meant "Nationalism" or some identity like that, in the context of bitcoin.

1
gaici_comredditor for 2 weeks•

Yes,the current most problem is development centralized . Not miners centralized because miner win by their high tech

0
xygo•

Bitcoin has a very diverse group of developers and the development process is open for anybody to contribute provided you can make a sound technical contribution. That is pretty much the opposite of centralization.

5
ROGER_CHOCS•

Any centralization is bad, whether it be development or mining.

1
Redundant_Bot•

Bitcoin is one of the biggest open source projects.

1
NickT300redditor for 4 weeks•

You are taking his comments out of context. You should never have mentioned racism at all.

1
ROGER_CHOCS•

Exactly, one of the benefits of crypto currency is that it is going to challenge, and perhaps even break completely (over a long period of time) the idea of geological borders.

Also, I think the word you want is "nationalism", not "racism". Racism meaning one person inherently believes they are superior. Nationalism is just too much pride in your country.

1
gaici_comredditor for 2 weeks•

I dont care Nationalism or racism.but some guys care,they use these to spread hatress in this place

1
ROGER_CHOCS•

I know, just was trying to inform ya a bit as it seems English is not your first language :)

Down with hate.

1
burstup•

This shows what I have been saying for weeks now: BCH + B2X = a double attack against BTC. The mining cartel's goal is to take over the name Bitcoin and to control it.

4
typtyphus•

Bitcoin cash is rising as we speak.

3
350365879OPredditor for 3 weeks•

and transactions are pending :(

2
[deleted]•

[deleted]

0
cm9kZW8Kredditor for 3 months•

Sure, its also rising to 50 blocks per hour yet noone is dumping the bcash. This is a pretty good sign that the miners are all lined up to try to push this attack.

2
gaici_comredditor for 2 weeks•

You will see more and more proof of my prediction. I am sure of that.

2
Infectedbtc•

Only Jihan and his monopoly no problems here /s

How about giving them shit instead of profits? Or just wait and watch the attack...

3
notthematrix•

LOL when i read this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Etyjc1JdmFU is my response.

3
typtyphus•

This is like writing DNA....
Every mistake remains with us

This is a must see, should be included in video list in the FAQ sticky.

2
_youtubot_•

Video linked by u/notthematrix:

TitleChannelPublishedDurationLikesTotal Views
Hardware, Software, Trustwareaantonop2017-03-250:25:36470+ (97%)16,739

In this talk, Andreas speaks about the ongoing clash...


^Info ^| ^/u/notthematrix ^can ^delete ^| ^v2.0.0

1
logical•

Boy that sounds like it was written by someone who doesn't understand economics, game theory or incentives at all. It could belong on r/ethtrader.

3
350365879OPredditor for 3 weeks•

your words makes me feel better. (Will be great if you could explain why u think so, cause i'm not the only one who don't know economics and game theory)

2
yogibreakdance•

chinese try to take over but money buying in bitcoin is from westerner. No reasons why westerner want to buy coin controlled by chinese

3
350365879OPredditor for 3 weeks•

thx for joining discussion, just for reminding, it's not about Chinese or western, it's about miners and users. It just happen to be that the electricity price is comparatively low that makes China a centralized mining place.

I regard this as a social level attack beyond what crypto could do, and BTC need to build a level of security on this.

4