A critique of co-ops and my suggestion to improve them, and other thoughts.

(0). I've been telling socialists with increasing frequency about the necessity of them having an actionable plan if they want their ideology to be more than just the whiny background noise you hear through the mic of the other ideologies' feed between them talking. But I get the impression many of them don't know what I mean by an actionable plan, largely though not entirely due to the prevalence of the incredibly stupid and useless attempt at one that is essentially just saying "something other than capitalism" with no further detail. This post is partly for everybody, but is especially for those of you who both fall into this category and for whom showing is better than telling.

(1). But first, a bit of exposition for anybody not familiar with the topic. Why is this even worth talking about? Why not just settle for capitalism?. — I'm currently in agreement that increased ownership of things among laborers seems like it's probably the next logical step for our economy. I am influenced, in this thought, by my understanding of the dismantling of the feudal system. This is a process that had a powerful effect on society, because by it so many people were empowered by having property of their own, instead of relying on the property of the lords. This meant people became more independent, more invested in their own labor and conditions, and had the freedom to apply themselves and experiment with their own ideas. The economy for this reason became more efficient, as well as more satisfying to participate in. I see the potential for similar change in capitalism, because the people whose labor is used in production don't own any of the property they need to work, and therefore must rely on access to the property of the capitalist, from whom they are effectively renting everything they use, instead of having property of their own to be independent by.

(2). And then some more exposition, since the reason I'm stepping in here is the inadequacy of one of the most popular plans socialists have attempted: the concept of a worker co-op. What's wrong with co-ops? — As they're popularly conceived, the only model people seem to have so far is one in which control of a whole company split evenly between its workers, who may then vote about how to manage it. This was probably meant to emulate the dynamic of a liberal parliamentary government, but that seems like a poor idea because parliaments are designed to behave differently than productive organizations, and interact with different parts of society; and these two policies, diffused ownership and democratic management, together create some adverse incentives, as the workers in question recognize both losses and gains they create are absorbed by other workers, and they may vote in ways that are antagonistic to other workers by trying to raise their pay, lower their workload, or both. It's possible of course that some people may overcome the temptation of these options, with the right social dynamic between them, and this has been done in a few specific cases one could point to; but this is too specific and unreliable a requirement for this model to begin replacing existing ones in scale and prevalence all throughout the economy.

(3). What I suggest. — A better idea, in my opinion, is that ownership of the various parts that comprise a company should be more individualized, and for cooperation between them to continue on a contractual basis, the company itself thus morphing into what is essentially a conglomerate of small producers. I'm not claiming this is the perfect system nor the last that people will ever create; it's just meant to be a graduation from existing economies, that could actually be reasonably implemented given people's current understanding and expectations of how an economy works. In other words it's anti-capitalism on realism, since anti-capitalism on nothing but whimsy, wonder, and violent cults doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I'll now describe how I think this might work.

Let's take a supermarket, for example. Whether a chain or franchise, today the whole store is owned as a singular commercial property and put under direction of a store manager hired by the company. The company buys finished products for resale and unfinished products for in-store production, then pays people to stock the shelves and to process and pack the food at their deli, bakery, etc. In the sort of organization I can imagine, maybe a person hired to their bakery would start off being paid a basic wage, like they are today, but this would be expressed as the revenue created by their labor minus the cost of providing them with the necessary property. They would then have the option to buy... no, not shares of the company, but the actual property they use to do their jobs (their floorspace, knives, cutting board, oven, etc.)—and, therefore, to become entitled to the full revenue created by selling their products. This would change, among other things, the psychology of the affected workers: no longer are they just showing up to do grunt work they don't really care about with other people's stuff just to get paid. Instead they're showing up to work with their oven at their workplace to sell their cakes to their customers. It would totally change the character of the relationship a person has to their own production: they would be—how did I describe it again?—freer, more independent, and more invested.

But what about people in administration, or who aren't directly producing commodities (cashiers, janitors)? — If their work requires control of certain property and today they perform that work using the property of somebody else, a rent of some type is buried within their wage contract, and they should have the ability to gain ownership of that property and therefore sell their services independently. Within the context of a large organization like a supermarket, the cashiers and janitors may effectively become third-party contractors being hired by the workers who own the products being sold. (I realize those jobs could also be automated, but that evades the principle of the matter, and the principle is relevant to other, more complex jobs that aren't at such easy threat of becoming automated.) Now, administration is a bit different of a question because their job doesn't require property and they are thus generally not thought of as being exploited in modern economies; but much of what their job consists of would become unnecessary in an organization like I describe, as the company needs managers primarily for the purpose of disciplining workers into behaving in such a way that maximizes returns for the company, as they don't want to do naturally. In other words, the manager is necessary precisely because of the difference between how people behave in relation to their own property and how they behave in relation to the property of other people. In an organization where people work with their own property, that function is no longer needed. To what extent something like a manager, as we currently know the role, might be useful, however, say for the purpose of helping to coordinate or aid communication between people within the organization, or help mediate decisions that affect all of them, such a person could easily be classified, like the cashiers or janitors, as a contractor for hire, employed by the various producers in part.

The corporate office that exists above most stores is not pointless, either. It has a legal division, it does market research, it manages contracts with other companies, and it maintains brand coherence. But again, we find, nothing about this requires the hierarchy of ownership as currently exists. What distinguishes a generic supermarket from a franchisee is just their voluntary participation in (and conformance to) the brand quality, appearance, and selection. This is currently more expensive than it needs to be, due to how much power is granted to the corporate office, rather it just being an agreement between the stores themselves as it obviously could have been.

But what about the cost of figuring out that this supermarket was viable in its current location, for it to be an attractive purchase for that worker to begin with? The worker may have been able to buy the property from a distributor, but how would they have known to put it where it is and to use it in the way they're using it? That's not a bad thought, but this is just a factor to be weighed into the cost of purchasing it. That's not to say information doesn't have a cost, of course, bor that the people who figure out things like this aren't doing useful labor, but there's a reason we don't have to explicitly wonder about where this cost goes when it comes to real estate in general, whose development also requires reading demand and taking risks. The market coordinates these things already.

(4). Now I'm going to answering the best questions/arguments against this that I could immediately think of.

But if this were such a good idea, then why hasn't it already already? — It takes less time to theorize and write about social development than it takes for it to actually occur. Most people aren't theorists, and even those who are don't have magic wands. In general, people just reply to the conditions society presents to them, and in doing so they can only deviate from the norm by so much. The genius of a plan is not measured by whether it can happen over night. Let's also consider for a moment, that it took years for the enterprises now in existence to develop, for the procedures and strategies to converge and stabilize to the point where they are normal and expected. How long would it take for people get used to some totally new set of ideas and practices? With every step early adopters take, they would be making new ground. It would be a constant learning experience for some time, and that alone is an organizational cost that any new form would need to overcome to establish and justify itself—and this all contributes to "why good ideas don't happen instantly."

Why would the existing business class agree to do something like this? — The short answer is, they wouldn't. Today's businesses profit from the way things are, but that's precisely what makes developments like what I speak of so revolutionary. Would slavers have agreed to end slavery, even though we now know an economy of free men performs better than one of slaves? Did the feudal lords agree to an economy they had no part in? Perhaps some did. Early movers, who were invested in the alternative, like oil companies buying green energy. But it's generally difficult to convince a person of some new way of doing things if step one in getting there is they have to sacrifice the things they worked for. Which isn't to say there's going to be violence against capitalists in the same way there was against many of the lords and slavers—not because capitalism has some kind of unique anti-violence property, but because the state of politics has since then become far less violent, I suppose because of all the technology and comfort we have now. I think society deserves a revolution, but more in the sense of the word as in "industrial revolution."

But if the current business model is more profitable, why would a property owner not insist on that instead? Am I suggesting we dispossess the existing businesses? If not, how does this work? — As it turns out, I don't think it's necessary to dispossess anybody. The question is, phrased a different way: if I own a bunch of property, why would I ever choose to sell it if I could rent it out endlessly instead, as people do now? This question can to a large extent be answered with another question: if I have a bunch of land, why would I agree to pay people a wage to work it temporarily, instead of letting them live there in exchange for their services, like people did centuries ago? Assuming I wouldn't be in violation of any labor laws. The difficulty I'd run into is, why would anybody agree to a scheme like that, when all the other land in society is run by people offering them wage labor? That's a better deal than serfdom, so my offer suddenly isn't very attractive. If I lured in some potential farmhands they'd stop me part way through my explanation of the offer and think I'm off my rocker. The point is, what people are willing to accept as normal changes a lot over time, and is informed by a large degree to what their other options are. If you already lived in a world where this was normal, what confusion or shock the idea would have caused you a century beforehand isn't too relevant (and boy, how confused you would have been if we had tried explaining how modern society works to a peasant version of yourself we lobbed out of a time machine into the dark ages as a baby). But this all leads to the final question I'm going to preemptively address, which is:

Then how do you get the ball rolling to begin with? If I've admitted it's difficult to develop new things, but my explanation of why the fact this scenario not being the most optimal setup for the people at the top of the ladder is that once it's in motion they couldn't stop it, then a big detail whose absence would blow this whole thing over is how I plan to get it into motion. This part isn't going to be too well received by all the American right-liberals who browse here, but I figure most of them won't have made it this far without being against me already anyway. The most feasible answer that isn't just waiting for the most politically conscious of workers to get out there and do the hard work necessary to break new ground against all odds (and they'd have to be really politically conscious, otherwise they'll be asking themselves the entire time why this work they're doing isn't just toward building one of those more standard you-get-all-the-profit-you-make sort of businesses instead), is to wield state power for the explicitly ideological purpose of subsidizing the shit out of it (maybe just in a few specific instances to start), while also removing the layers of protection that current corporations enjoy.

But what about the free market (in relation to the above)? If it's a good idea why does it need subsidies? — The problem with what this question implies is that the "free" market isn't what ended feudalism or slavery. It can take significant state action to change a widespread paradigm, both in dismantling the old institutions and protecting and aiding the new ones in their infancy. It took wars in various countries to put slavery down, and it took wars in various countries to end what we now understand as the feudal regime. If capitalism was such a good idea, why didn't it just... whatever "winning on the free market" means? ... No, I think asking why the free market doesn't solve our problems for us is basically just asking why the capitalists don't volunteer to shoot themselves in the foot, and asking why we don't just sit around asking for capitalists to shoot themselves in the foot for us to have a chance to implement our ideas is basically just asking why we're not a fan of sitting around not accomplishing anything. In other words it's a question that doesn't conceal as much depth as some of its users seem to think it does. So, I don't think it's unfair to want to use the state in attempt to create something new.

Posted Feb 15, 2018, 6:39 PM UTC · edited

830
POGO_POGO_POGO_POGOEconomic Democracy•

I think the real key to all of this the inversion of the capital & labour markets. Instead of the owners of the capital renting workers (with the rental/wage rate decided in a market), the workers would rent the capital (with the rental rate decided in a market).

After all, it is solely the workers that are able to combine the inert capital in creative ways to produce value. But in this case all the income from their creations get allocated to the workers, who then use it to pay off the capital rental (at the previously-decided rate).

Now, if the workers then decide to buy the capital outright, or continue renting and use their excess cash for something else, that's entirely up to them. Edit: They could even purchase unrelated capital to rent to other workers (then they could diversify themselves). Edit 2: Although I suppose the capitalist firm can rent both capital and labour... this shifts the discussion to who the owner of the "firm" actually is... I think I am positing that the owner should be the workers.

(I wonder if this is somehow better that what capitalist employers are able to do - they aren't allowed to upfront purchase the labour of an individual for life... that's slavery!).

2
HhturaOPnational syndicalist, ecology•

Hmm. I've just realized this is a bit long for this sub. I now anticipate that "you expect me to read 'all this shit' by you?" with the guy holding the book or whatever. Who will be the first person to post it? Game's on.

1
bridgeton_manClassical Economics (true capitalism)•

First!

You expect me to read this giant wall of text ?!?!?!

:P

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HeFlipYaApply Liberally•

Get a load of this guy, complaining about a free book!

3
EmpiricalAnarchismMarket Anarchy with (((Neoliberal))) Characteristics•

2,600 words isn't that long

1
HhturaOPnational syndicalist, ecology•

Oh, I know. We've all read books and articles that are longer. But for some reason, when people come onto reddit, their standards for length disappear. That's why you see people in default subs add a "tl;dr" for like three lines of text.

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HeFlipYaApply Liberally•

Well, I'm only on page 11, but one point worth mentioning: much of the third world suffers from your property rights/distribution argument today, but in a different form from feudalism. Many of the worlds poor farmers have access to land which they essentially have homesteaded but do not own title to. This puts them in the position of never being able to capitalize it, use it as collateral to purchase physical capital which would allow them to become more productive and create any/more surplus. It's one of barriers faced by a lack of property rights. I'll read more in a bit, but I think your general premise is accurate (at least so far). Relevant as OP is making a case for capitalizing the proletariat.

1
SpanishDukeRes Publica - Totalitarianism - Falangism•

Alas, that does sounds a decent bit like National-Syndicalism ;)

1
ModerateMandarinStratodemocratic GeoMutualism•

How?

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SpanishDukeRes Publica - Totalitarianism - Falangism•

In short, National-Syndicalism proposes vertical syndicates that merge together all steps of the production chain in an area, as well as conglomerating these corporations and orienting them towards a common goal.

1
ModerateMandarinStratodemocratic GeoMutualism•

How is it not anarcho-syndicalism?

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SpanishDukeRes Publica - Totalitarianism - Falangism•

Uh, how is it anarcho-syndicalism?

1
cledamySocial Anarchist•

Firms form the way they do due to transaction costs, search costs and information costs associated with the market. Forcibly individualizing firms will make them less efficient if they organized as a result of these costs.

1
bridgeton_manClassical Economics (true capitalism)•

(3). What I suggest. — A better idea, in my opinion, is that ownership of the various parts that comprise a company should be more individualized, and for cooperation between them to continue on a contractual basis, the company itself thus morphing into what is essentially a conglomerate of small producers

While I do like this idea, my feeling is that it is likely that his sort of things already exists. If anything, the development of contractual relationships and contract law dates back is considered one of the key historical cornerstone institutions of capitalism. Classical thinkers like Locke and Smith talked about this issue. And in principle, this is exactly the sort of thing that contracts were intended to be used for (aside from formalizing trade, I guess).

Also, the idea of conglomerates sprawling out across an entire supply chain or production process is also a concept that capitalism has seen before. But I like the idea that they would fit together to form a larger firm, based on which owners own which parts of the supply chain (in the japanese model, the mechanism is moreso interlocking shareholdings).

But what about the free market (in relation to the above)? If it's a good idea why does it need subsidies?

Here is one of the shortcomings of co-ops as I understand the concept. Once the firm is off the ground they work well. But getting one off the ground actually implies that the workers who would form the co-op have sufficient capital to launch the company in the first place. (other types of firms rely more on outside investors for capital, and so can get off the ground quicker)

is to wield state power for the explicitly ideological purpose of subsidizing the shit out of it

The way I see it, the issue here is that the state might have an SME policy, and so might be willing to subsidize small startups with access to subsidized capital for example, but convincing them that they should care specifically about the structure of firm ownership rather than just whether or not firms get off the ground, while creating growth and employment might take a lot of convincing.

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PictureFrameWindowLevel 69 Heterosexual Meme Lord•

This was long and I didn't read it fuck you put my thread back.

0
HhturaOPnational syndicalist, ecology•

In the 1998 episode Chef Aid, Kyle's mom has sex with Chef while Gerald waits in the closet. I just realized this while watching the episode last night. Trey and Matt put cuckolding in their show before anyone knew what the fuck it was.

1
HogeyeBill•

Your plan sounds a lot like anarcho-capitalism, until the use massive government force part. Frankly, I think that for many types of firms, cooperative arrangements would not work. E.g. production that requires lots of capital. Coops can’t raise capital. That’s why they are generally ‘old tech’ like book stores and restaurants. Another problem: A grocery store that had the baker own his capital, the butcher his, etc. would end up having waste due to the resulting public goods conflict game. One department could effectively hold the whole store “hostage” to demands - or suddenly there is no bakery dept because he took his capital and left. One owner prevents such ‘prisoners dilemma’ defections. So it is not clear that a coop would beat a proprietary firm, in customer service or worker satisfaction.

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HhturaOPnational syndicalist, ecology•

One department could effectively hold the whole store “hostage” to demands - or suddenly there is no bakery dept because he took his capital and left

How would you reply if I said "one bakery could hold the town hostage, or suddenly there is no bakery because they took their capital and left town—therefore bakeries should be publicly owned"?

It's true that individual people would be more powerful, as is the point, but somehow I don't think the incentives would be so disastrous. And contractual relations can be used to forge new incentives, where needed.

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HogeyeBill•

I would say that a baker who leaves town is not a problem to anyone, but if the baker in a grocery store leaves, he puts all other store workers and owners in danger. Thus, it would seem more efficient for a full service grocery to all be owned by one entity. Employee stock ownership (like Harps grocery) seems more likely to succeed. Some goods and services are “packages.” Letting one dept threaten to wreck the package may not be a good idea.

1
ModerateMandarinStratodemocratic GeoMutualism•

what's this about co-ops not being able to raise capital?

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HogeyeBill•

They are unable to sell shares to raise capital. This gives them a disadvantage compared to joint stock companies in raising capital. It is not impossible for a coop to raise capital, if the worker-members are wealthy enough. Doctor or lawyer partnerships, for example.

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ModerateMandarinStratodemocratic GeoMutualism•

They can take out loans, though.

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HogeyeBill•

Yes. So they have one hand tied behind their back. For risky ventures, they have to depend on high-interest loans rather than entrepreneur-capitalists.

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humanispherianMutualist•

If we're talking about socialism, the actionable plan is going to need to be more than just tinkering with the organization of individual firms.

-1
HhturaOPnational syndicalist, ecology•

I'm talking about changing people's social relation to the means of production. It's not FULL COMMUNIST REVOLUTION NOW, but I don't see how you could consider it irrelevant. I think what you're going to say is we also need to develop new exchange norms?

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humanispherianMutualist•

Property norms are probably the key, since the mechanism of exploitation depends directly on them. I'm not sure that, given existing property relations, any change in the organization of firms or in local exchange norms can provide much shelter from exploitation. The communist critiques of "self-managed exploitation" always seem to have some truth as long as those property norms are not significantly challenged.

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HhturaOPnational syndicalist, ecology•

In what way do you think property norms ought to change?

1
humanispherianMutualist•

I don't think there is an ideal form, since the requirements of local communities will almost certainly differ. But existing conventions encourage and facilitate individual accumulation in ways that make exploitation inevitable, so no real significant change is possible until at least those elements change.

1