r/Warframe•
HPetch

Precision-Guided Elephant Gun: another half-sane build, Ivara this time!

Build

Hello again everyone! I'm back with another ethically-questionable, far-from-optimal, but probably viable build, on the off chance that someone with more Corrupted mods feels like giving it a shot before I grind up to that point.

Today's build was inspired by the honourable Qwertys118, who posed an interesting question about a week ago: can Ivara potentially break multiple Eidolon parts with one shot using Navigator? Naturally this silly, yet fascinating, question sparked my imagination, so I began to theorize. Now, obviously the fact that you can only break one part per phase throws a bit of a wrench into this idea, but I suspect that with a competent team to get the shields down ASAP and good aim to make sure you don't hit it from an angle you don't have enough Punchthrough for it should be entirely possible. I posted a rudimentary version of this build in a comment on Qwerty's post, but after some deliberation and a fair bit of math I have a more refined version for your delectation. As before, I will make the disclaimer that this build is entirely theoretical, and I may have done some math wrong somewhere, although I am once again mostly certain I haven't. With that said, I present the Big Game Eidolon Hunter Ivara (OC, Do Not Steal).

Part 1: The Ivara

Right, here we go. Aura is Dead Eye, Exilus is Power Drift, the rest are Transient Fortitude, Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, Blind Rage, Fleeting Expertise, Augur Secrets, Streamline, and Intensify. You will no doubt notice the utter lack of any sort of defensive mods on this build; this is by design. Ideally, you will be spending the entire fight a good distance away and/or invisible and/or in Operator mode, making defensive mods largely unnecessary. Another important point is the very low Ability Duration. To those unfamiliar with the unique aspects of Ivara's Navigator Ability, allow me to enlighten you: in simple terms, it allows you to control the flight of a single fired projectile, while also increasing the final damage of that projectile over time as it is controlled. The interesting aspect is that how quickly this damage bonus ramps up is inversely proportional to you Ability Duration, such that having a reduced Duration will cause the damage bonus to cap out faster. The counterbalance to this is that reduced duration will also make the Ability cost more; I will cover this in more depth later, but by my assessment Primed Continuity strikes the best balance between the two.

Part 2: The Elephant Gun

An elephant gun, for those among us who aren't history and/or firearms nerds, is a weapon designed for taking down large game such as, well, elephants, from a time when hunting elephants was more socially acceptable and less evil, the only way to make a gun powerful enough to kill one was to make it very very large. For this build we will be using the Lanka as our boomstick of choice due to its strong crit stats and potential for 100% Radiation Damage, however in practise any projectile weapon capable of hitting 100% crit chance and modded for Radiation will get the job done. Our build is Serration, Heavy Caliber, Point Strike, Vital Sense, Stormbringer, Hellfire, Charged Chamber, and either a Riven or Primed Cryo Rounds depending on your resources. Due to using Navigator (which can only control one projectile), Multishot is useless to us and the lowered accuracy from Heavy Caliber is a non-issue. Charged Chamber may seem like an odd choice on a weapon with a 10-shot clip, but we don't care about shots 2 through 10, so it serves our purpose quite well.

Now, the tricky part: the Riven. Normally I wouldn't suggest a Riven for this sort of build, and it is by no means required to get good results, however in this instance we are interested in the negative stat. The Lanka's base 200 meter per second projectile speed is technically controllable, but you'll need a long run up, good planning and a fair bit of both luck and skill to make it work. As such, I strongly recommend using a Riven that reduces that speed. For reference, The best possible positive stats for this oddball Riven are Damage, Critical Damage and Electricity and/or Heat Damage, in that order. I will be assuming an ideal Riven for this build (unrealistic perhaps, but it helps get the point across), but even without one it will still get the job done.

Part 3: The Numbers

Now, what sort of results can we expect from this madness? Well, our Ivara build gives us +223% Ability Strength and -32.5% Ability Duration, plus 743.75 Energy to work with. This means that Navigator's damage bonus increases by 148.15% per second over slightly more than 11 seconds, so a cap of a whopping 1615% final damage. Prowl also costs about 1 Energy per second when not moving, which might come in handy when waiting for shields to go down. Our Lanka, meanwhile, starts off with 525 damage on a fully charged shot. I'll mention at this point that our Riven has the optimised stats of +188% Damage, +136.7% Critical Damage and +102.6% Electricity Damage (UPDATE: My original numbers here were incorrect, so I may change this later, as a 2-positive Riven may prove more effective). This plus Serration and Heavy Caliber boost our base damage to 3520.125 pure Electricity damage, which our elemental mods will kick up to 13468 Radiation damage. Charged Chamber will increase that by an additional 40%, up to 18855.2. Vital Sense and our Riven will increase our crit multiplier to 7.134x, making our final shot a respectable 134,513 damage. But we aren't finished yet.

Now we stack our 1615% Navigator bonus onto this, which pushes the damage through the stratosphere. Factor in Armor and an Eidolon's double weakness to Radiation damage (note that this is all calculated off of a Teralyst), and we end up with an astonishing 2,524,862 damage. This is before buffs, by the way, as I'm not entirely sure how the crit damage bonus from Volt's Electric Shield applies. Ignoring that, if we add in (assuming all support builds have at least 100% additional Ability Strength) 200% Radiation damage from Smite Infusion and 100% Electricity damage from firing through two shields (which would go up to 300% if the Volt runs Shock Trooper) we spike up to over 4.5 million damage, with the potential to go even higher with the addition of other damage buffs such as Roar or Fireball Frenzy, not to mention any boosts available from various Focus trees.

Part 4: Support Options

No specific examples here, the course should be obvious. Oberon and Volt add a lot of damage, as does Ember and really any Warframe that makes the damage bigger. Even if you don't have a perfect Riven, the previously stated buffs will push your damage to about 1.6 million, not counting the extra damage from a Primed Cryo Rounds and the crit bonus from Electric Shield (if anyone knows when that gets factored in do let me know so I can update my math, the wiki is very unhelpful), so 3-4 million or so is an entirely reasonable possibility depending on how that balances out.

Part 5: Final Thoughts

First, the most important question: will it kill in one shot? Well, sure, provided you don't mess up your Punchthrough or run out of energy, and even if it doesn't the damage is still more than enough for the job in more conventional runs. With that in mind, I offer two variations: for maximum one-bullet shenanigans swap Primed Continuity for Narrow Minded, which will increase your ramp-up time by 60% or so but slash your energy cost by about a third, letting you keep Navigator running for longer. Alternatively, you can ditch your Duration mods entirely for something else, which nearly doubles your energy cost but cuts your ramp-up time to a hair over 2 seconds, which is much more practical for a one-shot-per-limb strategy. Ultimately you'll have to tune your Ability Duration to suit our situation and preference, there isn't really a "right answer."

Anyway, that's my bit, I hope you find it amusing or enlightening, or maybe both. Any criticisms or suggestions are welcomed, although I would appreciate anyone who feels the need to say "Just use Chroma, he's more practical" kindly not bothering. I'm well aware that this isn't practical or optimal; it isn't supposed to be. I'm aiming for viable and different and interesting, in the hopes of perhaps inspiring some people to learn how to vary from the meta, and of course having a good time. Let's not get grumpy just because this isn't a .5% improvement on what everyone is already doing, alright? Alright. Also, special thanks to (again) Qwerty118 for the inspiration, and lolmagic1 for putting me on the scent of a couple optimisations. Good hunting, fellow Tenno.

EDIT: Left out a mod, incorrectly sourced my Riven data and miscalculated some scaling, thanks to ChristopherKlay for pointing that out. Everything should be correct now (or at least less wrong).

Posted Mar 5, 2018, 5:22 PM UTC · edited

5134
HPetchOP•

Paging u/Qwertys118, u/lolmagic1 and u/WhatAreYou_Casual, this may be of interest to you.

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WhatAreYou_Casual•

Thanks for mentioning me in the comment. Gonna read it after dinner

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Qwertys118•

Thanks for the page, it's nice to see someone expanding an idea.

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HPetchOP•

Any time. I'm always happy to have an interesting idea to chew on.

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WhatAreYou_Casual•

Well good sir (or lady) you've done a good job here. I'll have to get myself a ivara now and some primed mods.

So was it possible to shoot two limbs (sry but I read it in a bit of a hurry)? It would be pretty neat to 2shot limbs

3
HPetchOP•

Just to be clear, I did say that this was just hypothetical. That said, the damage dealt should be enough to one-shot limbs (on the Teralyst at least) without the Riven or Buffs, as even then you'll be hitting above 800k (after Armor) with a fully ramped Navigator, and Terry only has about 555k health total. That might not be enough for a Gantulist or Hydrolyst (I don't have stats for them easily available to calculate off of), but it will at least tear chunks off of them. You probably don't even need the Primed mods (particularly if you're doing a one-shot-per-limb thing, just remember to reload after each shot), they'll just give you more breathing room.

Also, I'm a sir, for the record, although kudos to you for not making assumptions.

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WhatAreYou_Casual•

Well the oneshot limb should work well enough. Just need a little better crit weapon as I've been using my rubico but it has ~70% crit, plus it's hitscan. Might use something else w higher crit and a bit slower speed.

1
HPetchOP•

I would imagine the general build would work with pretty much any projectile weapon, Paris Prime or Dread would be good contenders, for example. The main advantages of the Lanka are that it can take advantage of Dead Eye and Charged Chamber, and can also deal pure Radiation damage for the double vulnerability.

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WhatAreYou_Casual•

Well I think I have a dread bp, might use a critical delay daikyu as it won't have a 6 sec draw time now.

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Stevey854•

Dread is a really fun option because if you get a red crit and proc bladed rounds it's going to be fucking disgusting how much damage you do.

1
OnekoneLotus is kidnapped by Ballas, everybody confused•

So was it possible to shoot two limbs (sry but I read it in a bit of a hurry)?

Scaling energy cost and fact that other limbs turn invulnerable once one of them is destroyed make an answer a clear no

1
WhatAreYou_Casual•

Thought so. Still it would be pretty cool

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VulpesNoxi ♥ embae•

how would it work with: just regular flow and continuity, no riven and only a normal cryo rounds

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HPetchOP•

Hmm. Non-Primed mods on Ivara are fine, although you'll have less margin for error with your energy. Not having a Riven isn't a problem either, although controlling your projectile will be interesting, using a high-crit bow might be more wieldy, if less powerful. If you don't have Primed Cryo Rounds I don't believe the normal one is the best alternative, I don't have all the calculations on hand but Hammer Shot might get better results, or possibly even a Heat or Electricity dual-stat mod. Still, it would be entirely viable in any case, just somewhat less damage.

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TehsyrAs graceful as a tank, piloting the Hindenburg in a Thunderstorm•

Hypothetically speaking, you won't just blow up the Eidolon weakpoint, you'll also cause it to explode like it was in a Michael Bay film, except with explosions enough to make Mr. Torgue proud.

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HPetchOP•

Working as intended, then. Any Torgue-approved weapon is a good weapon in my books.

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Aurtose•

Nothing to do with the build, but...

Elephant guns didn't need to be that big to kill an elephant, smaller guns would have done the job.

They needed to be that big to kill the momentum of a charging elephant in the way only a massive ball of lead can. It's no good killing an elephant if it keeps going and still crushes you.

2
ChristopherKlayWelcome to warframe - customize your butt!•

Serration, Heavy Caliber, Point Strike, Vital Sense, Stormbringer, Charged Chamber, and either a Riven or Primed Cryo

.. i hope you forgot something in that list. D:

Damage, Critical Damage and Electricity and/or Heat Damage, in that order.

Which would be;

  • Damage: 188.0
  • Crit-Damage: 136.7
  • Heat: 102.6
  • Neg Flight Speed: -82.0 (400m-600m)
  • Total Damage (8x Zoom, 1x Combo): 137305.868

I'll mention at this point that our Riven has the optimised stats of +248.2% Damage, +180.5% Critical Damage and +135.4% Electricity Damage.

With the cap beeing 188, 136.7 and 102.6.. you literally took the values they can get if you only have 2 buffs and applied them to 3.

Now we stack our 1615% Navigator bonus onto this, which pushes the damage through the stratosphere. Factor in Armor and an Eidolon's double weakness to Radiation damage (note that this is all calculated off of a Teralyst), and we end up with an astonishing 3,354,277 damage.

With 16.15% from navigator, you end up at 2217489.768, against the modifier of a eidolon (ignoring armor, because that's the same % reduction for this and the later example) you are looking at a 118.75% increase (1.75*1.25 modifier) to 4850758.867. I'll leave this as the end number, not only because buffs are a thing on their own (and most ppl won't bring them, who the fuck even runs ember mentioned in the example..) and adarza/volt sheild getting added by both. Which is simply +50% electricity (that does not mix in) and crit-dmg times 2 in the damage formula (something wf-builder does not support). There's also some heavy mistakes in your math, looking at 2 volt shields adding "200% electricity damage", when it's half that..

If you want to compare that, a min-maxed chroma with a riven like that would result in;

Riven Stats:

  • Multishot: 102.5
  • Crit-Damage: 136.7
  • Heat: 102.6
  • Total Damage (8x Zoom, 1x Combo): 900908.686

A 900908.686 base, amplified to 1970737.750 total damage when adding armor/health modifier in. Sounds less, right?

It is, until you notice two problems with running ivara like that;

  1. If you miss, you fucked up hard. because your team has literally 0 damage - compared to having several hundreds of bonus dmg with chroma.
  2. Flight speed and navigator. You are shooting with 200m/s and a fall-off at 400 to 600m. I'll let you figure out yourself how that will screw you while charging navigator.

She is slightly above maxed out chroma with this setup (1,97 vs ~2,4 after fall-off) but your teams total damage suffers hard compared to chroma buffing the whole group. May i suggest just looking at artemis bow? A maxed setup is also above chroma, far more reliable and massively easier to hit Lol.

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HPetchOP•

Whoops, looks like I mis-sourced my Riven data, thanks for pointing that out! I will adjust my calculations accordingly. Somehow managed to leave Hellfire out of my mod list as well, although that was still factored into my calculations. Also-also missed that Volt's Shield damage bonus doesn't scale with Ability Strength. Still, the numbers are still pretty solid once you run all the calculations.

How did you get your Armor/Health modifier, by the way? I used the formula on the wiki and got an overall damage increase (after Armor) of 13%, but if it actually should have been 113% (or 118%, as you said) that makes things much more interesting. Of course, it could be that we just got to the same place with different calculations.

You raise some good points, the lack of Chroma's party-wide buff is problematic and the damage falloff could be an issue, although with numbers this large I get the feeling the Tigris Effect will start to come into play (assuming it doesn't drop off to zero, the wiki doesn't give specifics so I'm assuming it's 50%, like most shotguns). Still, it's worth considering the fact that a suitable Riven (which I did label as "strongly recommended") would both make missing harder and avoiding the falloff threshold easier.

Beyond that, though, I feel like you might be missing the point of this build. I didn't put this out there to say, "hey, I made this build, you'll be able to cap 5 Hydrolysts a night with it!" or something silly like that, but to say, "hey, I made this build, it's a bit silly but it probably works, what else might also get the job done?" As I said at the end, I'm not aiming for optimal, but viable, and interesting. I'll leave it to people more concerned with their Arcane per hour rate to figure out how to shave a few percent off the current meta.

Still, thanks for pointing out my errors, nobody ever got better at something by being told they were perfect. Do let me know if you spot anything else I might have missed.

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ChristopherKlayWelcome to warframe - customize your butt!•

How did you get your Armor/Health modifier, by the way?

If enemies are weak to a element based on armor and health (in this case alloy + robotic) they multiply. 75% against armor and 25% against health result in 1.75 * 1.25 = 2.1875. This is only the modifier tho, not the actual damage reduction from eidolons (which is pretty heavy at 1107 armor on level 50).

The damage fall-off is 50% yes, but keep in mind that negative projectile speed reduces the amount of travel till fall-off kicks in. With 50% less you already get fall-off at 200m distance traveled.

"hey, I made this build, it's a bit silly but it probably works, what else might also get the job done?"

Which is why i pointed out the artemis bow at the end; Works as well, just without the downside :p

1
HPetchOP•

Hmm, fair point about the falloff. This is why we ask other people's opinions! I'm still not overly concerned about it seeing as the damage dealt is already well above the Chunky Salsa Threshold, but it's certainly worth keeping in mind.

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Qwertys118•

I haven't seen too much written about fall-off, if you have time I have a question about something you said in your other post.

Flight speed and navigator. You are shooting with 200m/s and a fall-off at 400 to 600m. I'll let you figure out yourself how that will screw you while charging navigator.

I was testing navigator fall-off in the simulator using the Lanka and it does happen with projectile distance travelled, but navigator can also make the projectile travel at maybe 1/5 of the speed (I was getting about 7 seconds to reach a target 280m away).

You mentioned that riven projectile speed lowers the fall off range so I tested if that also applies to the navigator's built in slow. A ~160m shot at navigator's minimum speed caused no fall-off (-80% speed should have fell off at 80m if it held to the mentioned projectile speed formula), so the -80% projectile speed there doesn't match the fall off change from rivens.

This should give the player maybe 10 seconds to guide your projectile before fall off begins to occur with no projectile speed riven. With -32.5% ability duration as suggested, I think maximum damage is charged at around 3.4 seconds, so the window before any damage loss is after 3.4 seconds and before 10 seconds. A ~6.5 second window for maximum damage doesn't seem that bad to me, and you have the chance to turn around and try again if you don't crash or fail to punch through.

It does sound like a hassle, but there are some decent tricks to make your shot land between the ramp-up time and the the fall-off distance. The only problem I'm seeing for timing/spacing (outside teammates one shotting the limb before you) is Garry's shield if he decides to use it.

Maybe there's a mistake in the tests that I'm overlooking. Is there another problem I'm not seeing or were you just pointing out the hassle?

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ChristopherKlayWelcome to warframe - customize your butt!•

Iirc the whole flightspeed vs fall-off formula is buggy to begin with.

At least with a -100% flight speed riven back then, the projectile would literally stay still mid-air, should technically only do 50% because fall-off is reduced to 0, but still did full damage. So the fall-off distance is probably not calculated linear.

Would be nice to know the actual formula, because it's not on the wiki. :/

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OnekoneLotus is kidnapped by Ballas, everybody confused•

If enemies are weak to a element based on armor and health (in this case alloy + robotic) they multiply. 75% against armor and 25% against health result in 1.75 * 1.25 = 2.1875. This is only the modifier tho, not the actual damage reduction from eidolons (which is pretty heavy at 1107 armor on level 50).

A reminder that with how armor works in Warframe, Eidolon also effectively has only 276 armor, which is 47% DR or +92% EHP

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ChristopherKlayWelcome to warframe - customize your butt!•

I'm not exactly sure where you got that from, because it's false.

If you hit it with 100 pure radiation damage, the formula is;

1017 * 0.25 = 254.25 (modified armor)
1 - (254.25 / (254.25 + 300)) = 0.5412 (reduction modifier)
(100 * 0.5412) * (1.75 * 1.25) = 118.387 (total damage)

So the effective armor against rad would be 254.25 (not 276) and the effective DR would be 45.88%, not 47%.

That's also only for radiation damage and only the correct amount if you don't use CP/CD or SI - which any efficient group would.

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lolmagic1Float•

I would go with hammer shot over CC so you can still use art bow to deal with parts and have the sniper do the last shot

https://imgur.com/a/toefc

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HPetchOP•

If that's how you want to do it, sure, although I wouldn't say this is a particularly great Artemis Bow build (although not a terrible one, to be fair). That was a possibility I considered, but if I'm doing my math right Charged Chamber actually causes that first shot to deal more damage than Hammer Shot (at the expense of the other nine, of course, but even they hit pretty hard if they get the Navigator bonus). Still, it's not impossible that I miscalculated somewhere, so feel free to double-check my math if you're so inclined.

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Parasthesia🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥•

Now that's an interesting combo. I've tried Navigator with a radiation Glaive Prime a few times, interested in getting multiple hits due to the bounce mechanic. Didn't try as much power str though.

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Snagmesomeweaves•

Best elephant gun is a exodia contagion dagger zaw thrown to 30 meters then guided like the MOAB it is.

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_cprw_•

Pretty sure Ivara auto stealths when using navigator

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HPetchOP•

Indeed. Quite handy for the whole not dying thing.

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Raspy1337Baza masterrace•

We must put it to the test!

1