Source
r/ledgerwallet•
Boobcopter

How you can store your recovery words very safely

As the cryptosteel is somewhat expensive, I went with a comparable way to store the words (even more) safely for a lot less money and only a few minutes of your time. Depending on if you have the right tools available it may be for free, but even if you don't have anything yet it's still pretty cheap.

My finished result looks like this: https://imgur.com/a/sQ9zX

Here are the steps required:

  • So what you need first is an engraving pen that can engrave steel. Those cost less than 20 dollar and can be used to engrave anything, so may come in handy later for a gift or whatever. Those can be bought cheap on amazon for example.

  • Next thing you need is something to engrave to. I used cheap dog tags, a pack of 25 for ~5$ from China (banggood IIRC). But you can use whatever you want, 3 simple plates of old scrap metal work too.

  • Then you split the metal up in 3 groups.

  • Last step: You engrave your recovery words on them. If you use tags, you need 8 per group, because you can engrave front and back. So the first group gets words 1+2, 4+5...; The second group gets 2+3, 5+6...; and the third group gets 1+3, 4+6...; This only takes a few minutes, maybe half an hour if you're not used to a tool like the engraving pen.

  • It's done. You can now deposit each group of words in 3 different locations. You need 2 groups to recover your seed, so a thief can't do anything with it, while you still can restore the phrase easily. And your seed even is immune to water damage or whatever. Hope this helps!

Posted Mar 10, 2018, 10:08 AM UTC

12533
geppetto123•

Love the simple 2 out of 3 option with the analog technique

21
MonkeyPickle2•

Great idea. Can you explain how the "two out of three sets" thing works again? I can't figure out your pattern.

9
BoobcopterOP•

Thanks. Sure, it's easy once you see it:

https://imgur.com/piK4ihQ

With one group you can't do anything, but with two groups you have all 24 words available.

22
TubTub3232•

That's freaking genius!!

5
windfisher•

That's great thinking, thank you

3
rm21399•

Nice one fella. But what happens if you lose that key ring ? What’s youre back up ?

5
BoobcopterOP•

Thanks.

Then I go get the other two keyrings and rebuild it ;). A keyring only represents one group (16 words), and you can restore the full word set or only the missing group with the two other groups. So losing one set or getting it stolen is no problem.

5
rm21399•

Seems fool proof. I’m in! Unless all three key rings get stolen / lost at the same time. Guess you’d just be the unluckiest person alive if that happens.

3
BoobcopterOP•

Well even then it's not the end of the world, because they are basically "only" your backup. You have the ledger to use in the first place. So in addition to losing your keyrings, you also would need to lose/break your ledger in the process.

3
rm21399•

If you break your ledger you can just get a new one and recover it. This is cool.

2
cryptoPyte•

You need to monitor the existence of all 3 rings however. If one is lost unknowingly you have a problem as soon the second one is gone.

3
BoobcopterOP•

That is true. Making sure that your backup is available and working is nearly as important as creating it in the first place.

I got my second ledger nano s this week and used the words for recovery. Peace of mind ;).

2
Seudo_of_Lydia•

An extra step is melt down some candle wax and coat the plates until they can't be read. You'll need to melt the wax off to read them so if someone has brief access those plates won't be compramised.

Another option - more of an added fail safe - is using the Method of Loci.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci

5
WikiTextBot•

Method of loci

The method of loci (loci being Latin for "places") is a method of memory enhancement which uses visualizations with the use of spatial memory, familiar information about one's environment, to quickly and efficiently recall information. The method of loci is also known as the memory journey, memory palace, or mind palace technique. This method is a mnemonic device adopted in ancient Roman and Greek rhetorical treatises (in the anonymous Rhetorica ad Herennium, Cicero's De Oratore, and Quintilian's Institutio Oratoria). Many memory contest champions claim to use this technique to recall faces, digits, and lists of words.

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1
CalvinsStuffedTiger•

I love this idea

1
coranos2•

I just used steel business cards and a metal punch.

I numbered mine though rather than putting a hole.

4
BakGikHung•

Can I add your solution to http://bulletproofbitcoin.com?

4
BoobcopterOP•

Sure, go for it.

2
rjm101•

I did something similar with 4 dog tags letter pressed. Obviously not going to take a photo of it though ha.

3
tronsom•

Nice. I’ll do this when I get back home. Thx for the idea!

3
Poldi-1•

Great! Thanks for sharing!

2
rodriguez2•

wow great idea! thanks I'll try this.

2
[deleted]•

Smart

2
RaptorDoge•

Jeez, this is genius. You really should share this in the big subreddits if this isn't a common idea yet.

Include the example pictures.

2
BoobcopterOP•

Thanks! Yeah I considered this, but at the end of the day most people don't care about security. Most don't even have an own wallet, so I thought the ledger subreddit fits best.

1
ZepCoin•

Important: word order counts. Jumbled words = lost coin. 2048 to the 24th = 3.0 E+79 possible wallets, although in this case you could eliminate many of those because you would presumably have the words in pairs.

2
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
sheelo73•

I keep my recovery key in a safe. But this seems like a cool idea too

1
Holdremann•

Are they fireproof ? Dont trust cheap ebay/amazon "steel" Can u test by throwing one in a fireplace or something

Awesume tutorial anyways 😁

1
BoobcopterOP•

You never know. But I really hope no one burns down two of the places where I store them and my home.

2
stupid_seb•

Problem is that it becomes a single point of failure: if someone finds these you are screwed... and it’s a pain to recover as it’s stored in 3 locations.

I have a method that requires only 3 words to memorize from the BIP39 list: Remember these 3 words. (or 5 if you want) It can even be a sentence made of these words.

Add them at random positions in the seed list. Add extra words at the end to have a 30 words list (looks like a 30 words seed). A smart ass will even make sure that the last 30th word correspond to the seed checksum. ;)

Now, save that list where you want, when you restore, don’t take into account these 3 words, skip them, and stop once you did input the words.

Voila.

If a hacker gets your “30 words” scrambled seeds, he won’t be able to guess the original 24 one. Meaning that you can save that on a cloud (I add these words in an image (cannot be parsed) added to a PDF book, at a page I remember (like page 214 if i were born on feb 14th)

1
BoobcopterOP•

It's not a single point of failure. Someone has to find two of them. The chances of that are 0.

1
stupid_seb•

You never have ZERO chances

The SEED being a “Single point of failure” just means that if someone gets the info he has all access. Imho, using your storage technique + a personal scrambling technique is the way to go.

1
BoobcopterOP•

The seed is not a single point of failure if you can only get half of it.

I don't like the idea of having to remember parts of it. It's very possible that you create it and not use it for years. Forgetting something is much more probable than someone getting access to two secure locations of yours.

1
stupid_seb•

NOTE: SPOF or “Single point of failure” is a term in IT.

Splitting or scrambling the seed is the way to go: Never ever leave the full list somewhere. Your “3 out of 2” groups technique is smart but increases (low but existent) probabilities for a spof on the seed.

Remembering abilities depends on the person: I personally tend to forget where I put stuff, while easily remember codes or words for years.

1
Theft_Via_Taxation•

Can somebody explain how you can recover a wallet with only two thirds of the phrases?

1
BoobcopterOP•

The phrase is 24 words, you have 16 * 3. Losing one, still 16 * 2 > 24.

1