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r/Stormlight_Archive•
raphaelsasa

[Oathbringer] Question on the missing 10th

Oathbringer

Hi guys, just finished the last book last night and been thinking about it at work all day.

One question I had: Dalinar has been expecting a 10th companion at the well breach, but only 9 were present (perhaps the 10th should’ve been the dustbringers? But was there a stone warden present?)

Similarly, I believe it was Venli who noted at the end that there were only 9 orders of Fused and wondered where the 10th was.

Is there some significance to this? Are both sides missing a 10th order?

Posted Mar 28, 2018, 7:15 PM UTC

2657
mbue•

Taln would be the Stoneward. The most puzzling one is really Ash. Here's the relevant quotes from the scene (bold emphasis is mine):

Kaladin Stormblessed stepped up beside Dalinar before the rubble of the wall, and Shallan Davar stood on the other side. Jasnah emerged from the city and surveyed the scene with a critical air, while Renarin popped out behind her, then cried out and ran for Adolin. He grabbed his older brother in an embrace, then gasped. Adolin was wounded?

Good lad, Dalinar thought as Renarin immediately set to healing his brother.

Two more people crossed the battlefield. Lift he had anticipated. But the assassin? Szeth scooped the silvery sheath off the ground and slammed his black Shardblade into it, before stepping up to join Dalinar.

Skybreaker, Dalinar thought, counting them off. Edgedancer. That was seven.

He would have expected three more.

There, the Stormfather said. Behind your niece.

Two more people appeared in the shadow of the wall. A large, powerful man with an impressive physique, and a woman with long, dark hair. Their dark skin marked them as Makabaki, perhaps Azish, but their eyes were wrong.

I know them, the Stormfather said, sounding surprised. I know them from long, long ago. Memories of days when I did not fully live. Dalinar, you are in the presence of divinities.

[...]

Wait.

Those two only make nine, he thought to the Stormfather. Something told him there should be one more.

I don't think there's any doubt that the first 7 are Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan, Jasnah, Renarin, Lift and Szeth, covering Windrunner, Bondsmith, Lightweaver, Elsecaller, Truthwatcher, Edgedancer and Skybreaker. That leaves Stoneward, Dustbringer and Willshaper.

It's also clear that Dalinar seems to count Taln and Ash to get to 9. Taln is almost certainly the Stoneward. That leaves two weird cases: Ash and Venli.

Venli is a budding Willshaper, but at this point she hasn't spoken her oaths yet, or maybe something about her being a listener or her current form shields her from being recognised by Dalinar.

Ash on the other hand is the Herald of the Lightweavers, and it seems unlikely that Dalinar would have counted one order twice, especially considering that Dalinar was counting off orders, not people. We also (probably) know per WoB that Ash isn't, at this point in time, a Dustbringer herself.

However, there seems to be something going on with Ash and Dustbringers, because Ash is also a flashback character of one of the ten books in the series (which would constitute a second Lightweaver flashback) and we don't have any flashback character who is a Dustbringer. So maybe she'll become a Dustbringer in the future, but then why didn't Venli count?

But, I think it is notable that the 9 people he counts off are in fact 9 of the 10 flashback characters. The 10th one would be Eshonai, not Venli (although we can assume that the present-day chapters of the corresponding book will focus on Venli). Maybe there's some significance to the 10 specific characters Brandon chose for the 10 flashbacks. In that case, he might have been able to recognise Eshonai as a Willshaper, but not Venli for some reason.

Maybe someone should ask Brandon at an upcoming event whether Dalinar would have counted Eshonai had she still been alive and present at the battle. :)

(Side note, there's in fact a Dustbringer who Dalinar thinks is on his team — Malata — but she is in Urithiru during the battle, which is why I think we can disregard her.)

44
BarefootVol•

We're also assuming that Dalinar is a completely reliable narrator in this instance. He saw Ash and Taln, and while the Stormfather obliquely confirmed that they were heralds to him, Dalinar never acknowledges that he knows which two they are.

When I read it, I saw two possibilities. Either A) he had imperfect information and the "missing" radiant was foreshadowing that they were about to be betrayed; or B) this scene might later be found to have been foreshadowing for Ash to bond a spren of a different order.

At the moment I lean more towards A, but it's u/mistborn, so this wouldn't be the first time that he hid someone's secret at the beginning of a series so that we all feel silly that we didn't see it earlier.

14
mbue•

That's a good point, but I believe at this point there's also no obvious reason for Dalinar to know that Szeth would be a Skybreaker, yet he gets that one right. I'm pretty sure there's something magical going on, possibly related to Connection, which gives Dalinar his information in this scene.

11
RSharaElsecaller•

My theory is that he was standing in all three Realms at the time, and since the Spiritual Realm is where both Connection, Investiture(mostly) and Fortune live, he was sensing what Order everyone was going to be, and their Connections to him.

3
bonlyEdgedancer•

Maybe there's some significance to the 10 specific characters Brandon chose for the 10 flashbacks.

My money is on them being the new Heralds and some limited foresight being at work here (though with Venli taking Eshonai's role). I'll collect in 20 years.

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EarthExile•

You won't get good odds but the interest could be nice

1
mikedibEdgedancer•

Dustbringers seem to enjoy destroying, exploding and incinerating things. Ash's current compulsions towards iconoclasm would make her a great tempermental match for the Dustbringers. Err, I mean the "Releasers".

Venli's almost certainly the Willshaper to complete the set (she probably wasn't counted by Dalinar simply because she waited until the end of the battle to finally say the first oaths).

6
Airbornequalified•

Actually I think Ash’s compulsion is perfectly explained by her being the herald of lightweaving. The heralds we have seen, are all insane and seem to act against what the characteristics of their order should be (taln-broken and babbling instead of strong, jezren-a drunk that leads nobody and everybody discounts, Darkness-follows the law but plays with it to get the results he wants and seem to follow the letter of the law as opposed to the intent, and Ash-destroys things of beauty instead of creating them)

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xTopPriorityStoneward•

She is going to be a Dustbringer and fill out the roster. 10 is an extremely important number on Roshar. It is probably Honor's or Cultivation's number (or the sum of their numbers). 10 heroes to stand up to save Roshar each representing one of the 10 orders of Knights Radiant:

  1. Kaladin = Windrunners

  2. Szeth = Skybreakers

  3. ??? = Dustbringers

  4. Lift = Edgedancers

  5. Renarin = Truthwatchers

  6. Shallan = Lightweavers

  7. Jasnah = Elsecallers

  8. ??? = Willshapers

  9. ??? = Stonewardens

  10. Dalinar = Bondsmiths

Its just symmetry 10 orders, 10 books, 10 different heroes. A writer sets up connections like this on purpose. Also, you really got to just use Occam's Razer here instead of trying to overexplain Ash into being a Lightweaver. She has a compulsive need to destroy, which order likes destroying things? Dustbringers. Its simple.

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bonlyEdgedancer•

Not to mention the spren are Ashspren

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RSharaElsecaller•

*Stoneward ;)

2
mbue•

whistles

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JackDalgren•

Adolin was in the scene too... 100% a Willshaper.

From Coppermind:

Little is currently known about the Willshapers. They were said to be varied in personality, but generally possessing a "love of adventure, novelty, or oddity." Willshapers are mentioned as being capricious, frustrating and unreliable. Willshapers were also mentioned as one of the orders (with the Order of Elsecallers and Order of Lightweavers) who had an affinity to the "far realm of spren."

Adventure? Adolin embodies it.

Novelty? Adolin's fashion obsession.

Oddity? Likes Shallan despite her strangeness.

Affinity for far realm spren? Ummm Maya is a zombie spren... She is probably as odd and far realm as a spren can get.

From her description seems to be a former cultivation spren. But who can say what a Willshaper can do? Maybe Will her to come back as a different spren. Afterall, he can Will her in 3 other ways.

  1. He can throw her when she is in sword form and through Will he can keep her from vanishing.

  2. He Wills her to come to him in 7 heartbeats instead of 10.

  3. He Wills her to go to Hrdalm when he is too injured to fight.

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bonlyEdgedancer•

Capricious, frustrating, and unreliable do not describe Adolin.

Neither is he all lot much of an adventurer pursuing novelty.

The Lightspren hate humans as much if not more than the Ashspren...this is established in the Venli scenes. They would rather bond a Listener and lose out on the Nahel bond (and sentience it brings) due to this dislike so I don't see one bonding Adolin.

Adolin won't abandon his bond with Maya...who is a Cultivationspren.

8
PM_ME_YOUR_GOATS•

Sounds like Moash tbh.

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bonlyEdgedancer•

Moash radiant confirmed

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mbue•

I don't know, I'm firmly in the camp that Adolin will be an Edgedancer if he becomes a radiant. Not only does the type of spren match, but his personality is the perfect match for the ideals.

6
arielflowerWindrunner•

Regarding Ash being the herald of lightweaving yet seeming to display behaviours akin to the Releasers... I seem to remember it being specifically drawn the the attention of the reader that Nale had joined his own order, being the first herald to actually bond a spren and become a radiant in their order.

This is in OB Ch 106

Nin held out his empty left hand. A Shardbladeappeared there, different and distinct from the Honorblade he carried in the other hand. “I am not only a Herald, but a Skybreaker of the Fifth Ideal. Though I was originally skeptical of the Radiants, I believe I am the only one who eventually joined his own order.

So why are we assuming that Ash would be a lightweaver just because she's the herald of lightweaving?

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bonlyEdgedancer•

There's also a line that Nale was the last to accept his role as patron of 'his' order. The Radiants are chosen by spren which is why they have attributes in common with each other (most elsecallers are logical rationalist like Jasnah for example). However, the heralds aren't chosen by the spren so there's no guarantee they are going to fit perfectly into their order's ideals or personalities.

3
mbue•

I'm not assuming she's a Lightweaver, just that as the Herald of Lightweavers Dalinar could count her as one. Taln is also not himself a Stoneward. But due to the WoB I linked we also know that at least right now Ash can't be a Dustbringer either.

1
raphaelsasaOP•

AMAZING response, thanks so much!

1
RSharaElsecaller•

I think Venli was the 10th and he didn't realize it because he wasn't expecting a "Parshendi Radiant".

21
Ishana92Edgedancer•

but she wasnt there and in no way influenced or impacted that battle and he still doesnt know about her ecistence

-2
RSharaElsecaller•

She was there when he opened the perpendicularity.

The Fused scrambled away. Amaram pushed down his faceplate, but that wasn’t enough. He stumbled back, arm raised. Only one person remained in place. A young parshwoman, the one that Dalinar had visited in the visions.

“What are you?” she whispered as he stood with arms outstretched, holding to the lands of mind and spirit. He closed his eyes, breathing out, listening to a sudden stillness. And within it a simple, quiet voice. A woman’s voice, so familiar to him.

I forgive you.

Dalinar opened his eyes, and knew what the parshwoman saw in him. Swirling clouds, glowing light, thunder and lightning.

“I am Unity.”

He slammed both hands together.

And combined three realms into one.

19
twiztedterry•

“I am Unity.”

CHILLS!

13
Ishana92Edgedancer•

but she bonded spren officialy only afterwards

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RSharaElsecaller•

But the process of forming the bond had already started.

10
jofwuWillshaper•

I don't think that really matters though. It had no deeper meaning beyond symbolism. Just kind of an amusing coincidence. Ash and Taln don't have one either, yet. (presumably)

2
WhiteLeeopardAsh's Honorblade•

I think most can agree Venli is more advanced on the spren bonding process than Ash or Taln. If Dalinar could recognize Taln and Ash as 2 of the 10, he would have been able to see Venli as the last member he needed. Since he didn't recognize Venli, the most logical explanation is he couldn't identify her as KR due to been a Parshendi. I doubt the bonding process had anything to do with it.

1
OneArmedLopen•

The fused might indeed be missing a 10th order.

I believe the prevailing theory is that the Fuzed don't have a 10th order, because only 9 of the 10 heralds abandoned the oathpact.

Edit: Wrong. See below.

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Minion5051Willshaper•

Or that Nine is Odium's Number. Like 16 is Preservation's. Five is Endowment's. Ten is Honor's, etc.

It is also a religious reference. God's number is 7 while 6 is unholy.

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Meteorite12•

Yeah it does feel like that’s probably it, what with there being 9 unmade and the 9 shadows of Odium’s champion. Though with the shadow bit, the champion could be considered the tenth (in which case Odium will only have a tenth once he has his champion)

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RFSandler•

That doesn't track, the fuzed predate the betrayal.

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bonlyEdgedancer•

Which betrayal?

We don't know what led to the Fuzed taking power from Odium...we just know that Fuzed came before the Heralds/Oathpact.

1
RFSandler•

Of the oath pact, or at least the tenth member.

1
bonlyEdgedancer•

The war with the fused had been going on for a while before the Oathpact was betrayed.

humans show up -> ??? -> Fused are killing things -> Heralds created -> Heralds trap fused on Braize -> Heralds break due to torture and release Fused -> last 3 steps repeat a while -> Fused are killing things -> Fused defeated -> Heralds break Oathpact -> Taln single-handedly traps fused on Braize -> Voidform Parsh are killing things -> Parshmen created and Recreance happen probably around the same time -> Taln is still being a badass -> Taln breaks and Fused are released

2
Breathe_the_StardustJourney before destination.•

Could it be that they are missing a 10th order because there are no bondsmith equivalent of the fused? It's a pretty rare order that requires a special spren after all.

6
bonlyEdgedancer•

I don't think there's any direct 'equivalent' to the Fused. Like the Fused that Gravitate around everywhere don't ever seem to use Adhesion for instance. I'd wager that the Fused either only have a single surge or they operate on different combinations than the Radiants.

That being said, Venli's powers in envoyform are very reminiscent of Dalinar's power over Connection.

1
Breathe_the_StardustJourney before destination.•

That's a good point. I just assumed the Fused reflected the radiant orders, but thinking back it now seems that they just represent a single surge. This makes me wonder, is the surge that the fused are missing the surge of progression? I don't think we've seen a fused use that surge and it is associated with the still living Cultivation

Edit: I just read the comments about shard numbers and such and that also makes sense. I kinda like that theory, but why/how are the shards compelled to use a number? Why does honor get 10 and odium only get 9?

1
bonlyEdgedancer•

Progression is really only directly associated with Cultivation on theory forums. The surges probably predate the shards even though Cultivation is probably pretty big on Growth and Regrowth.

We don't know why the shards fixate on a number and probably won't find out until the Hoid prequels. It also isn't clear whether or not the number was something the shardholder fixated on (like Tanavast was the 10th person in line for power) or if it's associated with the shard itself. That being said, Harmony doesn't appear to have a number fixation as far as I can tell.

There's not really any situation where Odium 'only gets 9' even if there is some OCD-like number fixation...I'd bet Odium has Fused or Regals (18 or more potential types) with access to all of the surges plus things like Thunderclasts and a variety of unmade. It's not like he has one less source of power than Honor just because he likes doing things in groups of 9 instead of groups of 10.

As for Honor, the whole reason he picked the planet in the first place was probably the 10 surges (or at least the 10 gas giants that are speculated to relate to the surges). He personally picked 10 Heralds and there's 10 orders of Radiants because the spren copied the 10 Honorblades.

2
autumnalfox•

They wouldn't have 10 because they'd be missing their version of the Bondsmiths i think.

3
RSharaElsecaller•

I mean, the Fused existing at all is what led the Heralds to ask to create the Oathpact in the first place, so that really doesn't make any sense.

2
xTopPriorityStoneward•

This is a dumb theory that only Reddit believes lol. Much more likely to do with the Shard numbers as others have pointed out.

1
isamasterofnone•

Sigh, I need to reread everything, hold on.

7
fixer1987Edgedancer•

The 10th was Venli as a proto Willshaper

Ash is a dustbringer Taln a stoneward

4
hic_erro•

The missing 10th person was Moash.

3
ninjagamer85•

The Fused only have one Surge each, that seemed pretty clear to me anyway, instead of the overlapping system of the KR. So really the question is which surge do they not get? Maybe Adhesion, since that seems to be most lame, plus it's a Windrunner (the Order closest to Honor) and Bondsmith (most unique already Order) Surge. Conversely it might be Soulcasting, sense that one appears to be the most special, and clearly is OP.

2
bonlyEdgedancer•

I think Dalinar still had some instinctual knowledge left over from his time being all pillar of Honor's light or w/e it was and expected the ten most important people (and possibly the new Radiant leaders) to be there.

From an outside/reader perspective all 10 'main' characters were present but Dalinar only saw 9 (because Venli is the 10th and probably now a Willshaper). Taln and Ash are counted among the 10 and confirmed that they will have their own books so a lot of people think Ash will become a Dustbringer so all 10 orders are represented.

Honor = 10, but Odium = 9 which is why there are nine types of Fused and ten types of Radiants.

2
theninch•

I believe he only has 9 as dustbringers have defected or at the least will not help humanity. That’s what the dustbringer says earlier in the book.

0
xTopPriorityStoneward•

Well then by that logic the Skybreakers have abandoned humanity as well!

Spren and surgebinders are not monolithic. There is almost certainly at least one ashspren out there that has not given up on humanity yet.

3