The Traditionalist Conception of State and Nation.

Well, things have been really really good for me lately. I got lucky, and whilst I hesitate to name anything an act of God, the sheer luck I experienced has honestly convinced me that someone somewhere is watching out for me.

That aside, I figure my next few posts are going to be a lot more conceptual and a lot less competitive/offensive in nature. Hopefully explaining reactionary ideas in a less angry--albeit less passionate--manner, if only because the confusion over them and what they stand for causes its own share of issues.

In his book, Men Among The Ruins, Evola outlines the traditionalist's understanding of The State in contrast to The Nation and that it is fundamentally understood in relation to spiritual principles in the traditionalist mindset.

To summarize, the nation is understood in a collective sense, as the people, the land they live on, and their history. This generally speaking leads to a kind of ethno-nationalism and racial support, one's people, as it's understood, is in one's blood: a Jew belongs to the Jewish people, an African-American belongs to the African-American people. Of course this doesn't always manifest itself on a purely ethnic basis, but the generally principle is that the closer the blood the closer the people: America could construct a "White" rather than purely WASP identity in part because there was at least the shared heritage of Europe (usually Western Europe) as a common basis, the mixture of people who in general looked similar enough, had some shared religion (though not without the age old protestant-catholic divide which took a while to overcome), and would be almost indistinguishable at a glance allowed for a degree of stability.

But that's getting sidetracked, the nation itself is attributed to the feminine principle, the principle of nation, soil, family. Customs and Traditions can be ascribed to the nation, generally maintained on some level by the women of the nation, so on.

By contrast, Evola considers the state to be a männerbund, a Germanic concept. In Latin it's comitatus, referring generally to northern Germanic Warbands with individual warriors swearing obedience to their chief. This however is not obedience to an alien force, someone who is foreign and separate on a base level from others, but rather it refers to obedience given to friends and family. To use an example: in the concept of family clans, especially in the Scottish Highlands, the warriors of the clan would pledge obedience to a chief, yet that Chief was part of the same family, they were obliged obey him, but it did not make him their "superior" in the literal sense.

Evola's männerbund concept relates on some level to the system of duties and obligations found in feudal societies, of peasants to their lord and vice versa, though it does not necessitate a return to Feudalism, on some level Julius Evola likely saw Fascism as a kind of psuedo return to form, even with it's totalitarian streak. The Nation and State are thus separate, yet complimentary concepts: The State exists to protect the Nation which births men that make up the State. It's the compliment of male and female, collectivism and and individualism, thus saying Fascism or Traditionalism is solely collectivist or solely individualist is mistaken, it's a complimentary fusion of both.

The State exists as a kind of "order" of individuals, the nation requires the collective to act with one purpose in unity, whilst the State lifts up those who excel into the upper echelons of the hierarchy, as one ascends the hierarchy they are also implored to develop themselves spiritually: the King must see himself not merely as the individual, but as almost embodying the essence of the nation, to go beyond the self and see the land as composed of his body and organs, we see this wonderfully in King Louis XVI who, with his last words, prayed his blood wouldn't fall back on France and pardoned his killers.

Yet with the upturning of the old order, we found that this conception of State and Nation was destroyed. The Merchant Class ascended into power, with their authority being derived entirely through pure material goods rather than spiritual development and physical strength. Democracy is the government of the merchants, as political power generally goes hand in hand with economic power, excepting the few occasions in which a demagogue ascends to reign, during which point the merchants use every resource at their disposal to undermine the state and destroy the populists, all to send an implicit message: it's their candidates or its national poverty.

Now it's generally the way of things, that when a country first throws off the vestments of tradition and embraces the "new order", there remains some degree of heroic individuals among the Merchant class: Merchants with a warrior ethos if that makes sense. These men tend to ascend, to become "captains of industry", they're the heroic merchant that Ayn Rand would write of, the people who take a desert and through great cunning, build a strip mall. Yet it's the habit of all things to decay over time, eventually the frontier gives way to townships, yet Merchants still need to make funds, so they chase frontier markets, and when the frontier disappears eventually merchants have a decayed kind of marketplace, the heroic spirit no longer exists and the act of making money becomes an increasingly ethereal thing, you don't see the creation of revolutionary kinds of factories and businesses, but rather the impression that money is just moved around and used up. The Stock Market is a perfect example of this kind of degenerated merchant mentality: it's a chaotic mesh of people far removed from anything based in reality, but rather real money being moved and lost because of an insane hive of individual voices either panicking or applauding something they think will make or lose them money. Millions are lost on a whim and general feeling rather than on a factory going up in flames.

We also see the rise of inhumanity in society: concepts like "the motherland" mean nothing to those who would sell their mothers into prostitution if it means making more money. Man is materialized and atomized, turned into a tool, a means of production, to be exploited and worked until the spirit and bodies of a people are broken, then you bring in new "models" from across the globe and repeat the process with them.

One sees no more horrifying a view of the world, than the "Post-National Country" which Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau celebrated Canada becoming not too long ago. What is The State if it does not belong to a single nation, other than a cabal of men ruling over a people that are not their kin and thus lack any reason to sympathize or fight for their interests? The idea is more horrifying the more you think of it: it is an order imposed on the nation by something foreign, something alien, something which does not belong to it: it's conquest by bureaucracy. Society is far removed from being ruled by men with heroic quality and heroic will, the concept of duty and obligations have been replaced with a more general rights, earned not through virtue but by filling out scraps of paper and paying fees in the form of taxes. The state without the nation is tyrannical and soulless, the politicians become an alien people far removed from even the most basic empathy for their people: they have empathy for the entire world, and thus have spread their love out so thin as to have love for no one.

An example: the "pro-immigration" side is in the absolute minority, the majority of people do not support policies such as a general amnesty for illegals, and the majority wants to see immigration curbed, not increased, yet the media, the politicians, all the institutions of the established order treat it as if it's the reverse: that those who have any semblance of nation are in the minority and are only motivated by pure xenophobia and stupidity. This is because these people are so removed from what is natural human political organization they cannot understand an American government springing from the people, but rather the people being economic objects meant to serve the state.

Anarchists however are no better, even Nationalist ones. A nation without a state, an attempt at pure collectivism will either be aborted before it's born, or compromises itself as heroic individuals naturally arise from the ranks to lead a sundry warbands. Antifa may think it's being clever by having "leaders without hierarchy", but all they've done is created the first foundation for the establishment of a state. A Nation without a State shackles the heroic will, the excellent individual, and leaves only a grey morass as a substitute. It insists there's no point in heroes, nothing worth striving for, nothing possible unless done by the collective: this is understood implicitly in the distinction people make of movies made to appeal to certain demographics. It's a materialist philosophy born from the Merchant class' understanding of the world, but mutated by Marxism and "Proles" to some extent: the Merchant and Politician both try to avoid holding any strong opinions, any sense of "exclusiveness" because theirs is the currency of the majority, of the quantity over the quality, angering a few to please a few does the merchant class no good, best to anger none and stir the great passions of none in order to run a successful business.

It's the difference between a birthday card and a classical painting: one was created by an excellent individual, the other was likely thought up in a focus group.

This also explains to some extent the Religiosity of Reactionaries: one cannot, they argue, have a state and thus civilization without individuals with heroic qualities, thus hero worship, striving towards ideals and great myths, are all part and parcel of reactionary thought. Reactionary thought finds itself in opposition to all political philosophies which are based solely on materialist principles and undermine heroic quality and spiritual development.

Posted Apr 6, 2018, 1:08 AM UTC

720
Raminelwolf"It creeps behind at night, ready to seize your toothbrushes."•

A nation without a state, an attempt at pure collectivism will either be aborted before it's born, or compromises itself as heroic individuals naturally arise from the ranks to lead a sundry warbands. Antifa may think it's being clever by having "leaders without hierarchy", but all they've done is created the first foundation for the establishment of a state.

Hierarchy requires the ability to enforce, through direct violence or coercion, leadership isn't necessarily hierarchical. One could say it's the opposite since a leader leads not rules.

What is The State if it does not belong to a single nation, other than a cabal of men ruling over a people that are not their kin and thus lack any reason to sympathize or fight for their interests?

The purpose of the state was never to represent a nation, the state is an old vestige of the old feudal times.

We see the French and American revolutions mark the beginnings for the new bourgeoisie, who under the guise of "national liberation" hijacked the old power structures to form liberal states, influenced by the new liberal ideas of the enlightenment era based on private property, 'free' markets, trade and capitalist "meritocracy" in contrast to the old systems which favoured mercantilism, tariffs and the powers of the clergy and nobility. Logical advancements

The entire notion of a nation-state is inherently a bourgeoisie capitalist concept.

2
MoprollemsOPLiteral Caliphate•

Hierarchy requires the ability to enforce, through direct violence or coercion, leadership isn't necessarily hierarchical. One could say it's the opposite since a leader leads not rules.

The history of humanity shows hierarchies almost always developing on some level: our earliest civilization, mesopotamia, gave birth to Monarchy because its Generals, its leaders were vested by the people with great power to rule in order to safeguard them from barbarians.

You can have a hierarchy-less society, all thing being equal, but all things are not equal: poverty or famine in one land would lead to war in neighboring lands, pure envy and spite can lead to conquest, and out of that will come the power to rule. Charismatic generals can and would make themselves Kings in a "pure" Anarchy.

The purpose of the state was never to represent a nation, the state is an old vestige of the old feudal times.

The traditionalist conception is that States are birthed out of nations to protect them, this is the case throughout human history.

We see the French and American revolutions mark the beginnings for the new bourgeoisie, who under the guise of "national liberation" hijacked the old power structures to form liberal states, influenced by the new liberal ideas of the enlightenment era based on private property, 'free' markets, trade and capitalist "meritocracy" in contrast to the old systems which favoured mercantilism, tariffs and the powers of the clergy and nobility. Logical advancements

Yet what the Founders did in the American Revolution is not anything different from Evola's conception of how States formed: men pledged obedience to a heroic leader who formed an Order to protect his "nation", that nation being America. Political ideology does not figure much into it.

1
Raminelwolf"It creeps behind at night, ready to seize your toothbrushes."•

The history of humanity shows hierarchies almost always developing on some level

Outright Wrong

The Homo Sapiens species have spent more than 90% of our time as nomadic hunter-gatherers, prior to the neolithic revolution.

Additionally, our pre-Neolithic hunter-gatherer ancestors most likely had far lower rates of depression, worked far less hours, and did not live hierarchically - this included social equality between the sexes as well.

Hierarchy came as a result of the solidification of the means to survive, since people no longer relied on hunting and gathering, but instead in pieces of farmland to eat, the latter could be privatized and used to coerce people.

poverty or famine in one land would lead to war in neighboring lands

Wars were lead by Kings against Kings into claiming land from which they could exploit labour.

Charismatic generals can and would make themselves Kings in a "pure" Anarchy.

Are you going to just make statements without sources? Just based on your imagination I guess?

The traditionalist conception is that States are birthed out of nations to protect them

That wasn't any "tradition", if you take a look at the history of feudal and pre-feudal (Pax Romana) you see that states didn't represent nations. The whole purpose of a fief was that you had a claim to the products of it's people's labour and resources, as much as you could defend that claim against others, obviously by force.

The notion of nation-states was exclusively born out of enlightenment thinking and used as an excused to take out the old feudal forces with the idea to replace it with an "equal democratic" popular society, which never actually happened and ended up with the rise of the bourgeoisie and capitalism.

1
WikiTextBot•

Hunter-gatherer

A hunter-gatherer is a human living in a society in which most or all food is obtained by foraging (collecting wild plants and pursuing wild animals), in contrast to agricultural societies, which rely mainly on domesticated species.

Hunting and gathering was humanity's first and most successful adaptation, occupying at least 90 percent of human history. Following the invention of agriculture, hunter-gatherers who did not change have been displaced or conquered by farming or pastoralist groups in most parts of the world.

Only a few contemporary societies are classified as hunter-gatherers, and many supplement their foraging activity with horticulture or keeping animals.


Neolithic Revolution

The Neolithic Revolution, Neolithic Demographic Transition, Agricultural Revolution, or First Agricultural Revolution, was the wide-scale transition of many human cultures from a lifestyle of hunting and gathering to one of agriculture and settlement, making an increasingly larger population possible. These settled communities permitted humans to observe and experiment with plants to learn how they grew and developed. This new knowledge led to the domestication of plants.

Archaeological data indicates that the domestication of various types of plants and animals happened in separate locations worldwide, starting in the geological epoch of the Holocene around 12,500 years ago.


^[ ^PM ^| ^Exclude ^me ^| ^Exclude ^from ^subreddit ^| ^FAQ ^/ ^Information ^| ^Source ^] ^Downvote ^to ^remove ^| ^v0.28

1
MoprollemsOPLiteral Caliphate•

The Homo Sapiens species have spent more than 90% of our time as nomadic hunter-gatherers, prior to the neolithic revolution.

Raminel, unless that's an endorsement of Anarcho-Primitivism, it doesn't mean much. Yes the brief period of time wherein we lived in small communities, generally where everyone was related to each other, and hunted for our food was seemingly without hierarchy--though in truth the mere existence of family sowed the seeds of hierarchy--could be close to what Anarchists "want": but that gave way thanks to agriculture and urbanization. You wouldn't see a city as large as LA survive without hierarchy and State.

Additionally, our pre-Neolithic hunter-gatherer ancestors most likely had far lower rates of depression, worked far less hours, and did not live hierarchically - this included social equality between the sexes as well.

Tribal equality was exaggerated, yes I imagine people were likely not depressed because they could live in an astoundingly physical sense, they couldn't survive if they were stopped by despair constantly, and enjoyed a world which was open to them. I'm more Parochial than Cosmopolitan so I see it more or less as an endorsement of my ideals rather than of anarchy in general.

Hierarchy came as a result of the solidification of the means to survive, since people no longer relied on hunting and gathering, but instead in pieces of farmland to eat, the latter could be privatized and used to coerce people.

As I said, that'd be a decent argument if you were an Anarcho-Primitivist.

Wars were lead by Kings against Kings into claiming land from which they could exploit labour.

Kings came about in Mesopotamia because of wild floods causing environmental disaster, and those Anarchic Barbarian Tribes raiding them for riches: Anarchy and scarcity makes hierarchy a necessity.

Are you going to just make statements without sources? Just based on your imagination I guess?

We're talking of a theoretical Anarchic society, sources aren't needed. Plus, as I said, Mesopotamia is what gave us Kings.

That wasn't any "tradition", if you take a look at the history of feudal and pre-feudal (Pax Romana) you see that states didn't represent nations. The whole purpose of a fief was that you had a claim to the products of it's people's labour and resources, as much as you could defend that claim against others, obviously by force.

The Roman Empire (and Republic) represented the nation of Rome. I'm not sure how you're trying to argue the state was separate from the nation.

The notion of nation-states was exclusively born out of enlightenment thinking and used as an excused to take out the old feudal forces with the idea to replace it with an "equal democratic" popular society, which never actually happened and ended up with the rise of the bourgeoisie and capitalism.

Nations as a concept existed for far longer and far before the enlightenment. Aquinas was talking about Nations. The Qur'an talks about Nations. Nations were widely understood as a people, language, history, so on. While not the same as the modern democratic nation-state model, I don't believe you can argue that nations and states are somehow enlightenment inventions.

1
Raminelwolf"It creeps behind at night, ready to seize your toothbrushes."•

though in truth the mere existence of family sowed the seeds of hierarchy

The "nuclear family" as we know of it today didn't exist, also stop projecting your life experience into everything else.

You wouldn't see a city as large as LA survive without hierarchy and State.

Catalunya survived almost 4 years under siege and bombardement without any bosses or rulers.

Tribal equality was overplayed, yes I imagine

That's the problem, you imagine.

Kings came about in Mesopotamia because of wild floods causing environmental disaster, and those Anarchic Barbarian Tribes raiding them for riches: Anarchy and scarcity makes hierarchy a necessity.

Then they weren't "anarchic" dumbo.

That's exactly what I said, the solidification of resources into land thanks to agriculture allowed people to subjugate and exploit others.

Just because the kings exploited the people less than the barbarians doesn't mean it was good.

The Roman Empire (and Republic) represented the nation of Rome.

Ah yes I am pretty sure people from Northern Britain were just as Roman as the Nubians.

Nations as a concept existed for far longer and far before the enlightenment

As I said, Nation-states. AKA states based on nations.

While not the same as the modern democratic nation-state model

Modern states are not democratic at all.

I don't believe you can argue that nations and states are somehow enlightenment inventions.

As I said, Nation-states. AKA states based on nations.

1
404Freedom_Not_FoundNation. Order. Family.•

Human beings innately crave spirituality and idols. Whatever the reason for this, we should not discard it as liberal capitalist secularism would have us do. Marx was correct when he said that the Bourgeois revolution had swept aside many things, but he wrongly believed it to have been a good thing. We now live in a society where people can see no reason to work other than crass self-interest. "Who would want to work under a socialist system" has become "common sense" rather than the deeply ideological and self-evidently ridiculous statement that it is.

This is an excellent post!

2
[deleted]•

"Who would want to work under a socialist system" has become "common sense" rather than the deeply ideological and self-evidently ridiculous statement that it is.

8/10 bait , bravo

0
Sarcassimo•

Lengthy and well thought out. The usual trolls dont have the attention span to try to read, understand and attempt to refute your logic.

I agree with the human spirit aspect of leadership. If it is the warrior ethos that drives leaders to step up, so be it. I don't see working for self interest only as crass. My self interest is as I see valuable to me. We work for our family, friends and community not the state. Kicking antifa and anarchists in the frontal lobe with logic and understanding of the bigger picture is so mean. Love it.

1
alienated_proleAbolish the Spectacle•

Someone hasn't read The German Ideology.

1
SpanishDukeDVX MEA LVX•

Good post. There is no nation without a state, and no state without a nation.

1
SoveraigneCitizen Republic•

I think it’s more accurate to say that there can be no nation without a state but a state without a nation is an abomination that will work against itself.

1
MoprollemsOPLiteral Caliphate•

You summed it up perfectly.

2
eumenes_of_cardia•

There can be a people without a state - but is not a desirable existence for it usually means they are under the thumb of another people's state.

A state will not work against itself - but it may work against its nation. State power may in fact grow at the expanse of its founding nation's power. Finally, to consecrate the state the nation maybe reduced or destroyed in favour of a population loyal to the state only, as opposed to the customs of the people.

In the same vein, a people may found a state, but a state should not found a people.

To deepen this even a bit more. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muqaddimah)

1
WikiTextBot•

Muqaddimah

The Muqaddimah, also known as the Muqaddimah of Ibn Khaldun (Arabic: مقدّمة ابن خلدون‎) or Ibn Khaldun's Prolegomena (Ancient Greek: Προλεγόμενα), is a book written by the Arab historian Ibn Khaldun in 1377 which records an early view of universal history. Some modern thinkers view it as the first work dealing with the philosophy of history or the social sciences of sociology, demography, historiography, cultural history, social Darwinism, ecology, Darwinism and economics. The Muqaddimah also deals with Islamic theology, political theory and the natural sciences of biology and chemistry.

Ibn Khaldun wrote the work in 1377 as the introduction chapter and the first book of his planned work of world history, the Kitābu l-ʻibar ("Book of Lessons"; full title: Kitābu l-ʻibari wa Dīwāni l-Mubtada' wal-Ḥabar fī ayāmi l-ʻarab wal-ʿajam wal-barbar, waman ʻĀsarahum min Dhawī sh-Shalṭāni l-Akbār, i.e.: "Book of Lessons, Record of Beginnings and Events in the history of the Arabs and Foreigners and Berbers and their Powerful Contemporaries"), but already in his lifetime it became regarded as an independent work on its own.


^[ ^PM ^| ^Exclude ^me ^| ^Exclude ^from ^subreddit ^| ^FAQ ^/ ^Information ^| ^Source ^] ^Downvote ^to ^remove ^| ^v0.28

1
soskroodWarned you we tried Listen you did not Now Skrood we all will be•

Well, things have been really really good for me lately. I got lucky, and whilst I hesitate to name anything an act of God, the sheer luck I experienced has honestly convinced me that someone somewhere is watching out for me.

Glad to hear things are turning around for you.

Thank you for this post, I think it has helped me identify the source of some of the anarchistic leanings. This will probably be a word salad since my ideas are not fully formed, but I'll give it a try anyway.

The state is a father figure, the masculine. It was long the domain of just the males. The males would fight for the resources, the females would prepare them and raise the next generation, statecraft became the way whereby the men could negotiate the common interests without necessarily deploying the sword. 'Blessed are those who choose to keep their swords sheathed'.

There are 2 main fatherly archetypes. The one is the wise father. The other is the tyrannical. Anarchism is a reaction to the tyrannical father - an attempt to return to the utopian feminine collective.

The hero is someone who recognizes their own individuality, goes into the chaos, rescues the father / retrieves the thing of value, then gives it to the collective / feminine.

The state without the nation is tyrannical and soulless, the politicians become an alien people far removed from even the most basic empathy for their people: they have empathy for the entire world, and thus have spread their love out so thin as to have love for no one.

Yes, and anarchism (both varieties) is a reaction to this observation. As someone who has only known the state in this form, it is difficult to see otherwise. We see this all around us - the denigration of masculinity. It is strange, we have gone from the hero's of 'the greatest generation' to 'we don't need men anymore' in 80 years. Something went sideways, the lessons were lost and our understanding faded.

I think this is what drives some of the ethno-nationalists. The nation has become a whore, and it is a product of her own desire - born from suffrage and birth control. The two no longer love each other, and they stopped reproducing, which is why she lifted her garter so that all may enter. Let us leave her to her tyrannical husband. He is a mocked cuck.

The question is how to revivify the guardian father and the chaste mother. The answer in their view is ethnically homogenous people with a minimalist state apparatus.

1
MoprollemsOPLiteral Caliphate•

I would say your ideas are on point to a degree, though I think in regards to the "tyrannical" father you see two reactions rather than simply one.

Generally the most common signs of people who are abused is that they act younger or older than they actually are, they can come across as timid/overly compliant or hyper-aggressive and angry. I was more the former, in real life, than the latter.

The father can develop one's relationship with wider society--the State and to some extent, Religion and other institutions--purely through his own actions. The ideal Christian fatherhood is one where, while total control and strength may lie in the father's hands, he uses it wisely and kindly and for the development of the rest of his family/those beneath him. The satanic parody is fatherhood without love, a cruel tyranny and rule via strength and strength alone.

What Evola argues is to some extent, a return to the former, he sees it as the duty of those higher on the hierarchy to assist the spiritual development of those beneath them. In essence, there's a reason that political extremists do not have happy childhoods, as they end up believing the state is either intrinsically harmful and should be destroyed, or that it needs to be seized for its own good.

1
soskroodWarned you we tried Listen you did not Now Skrood we all will be•

I think that the state has the capacity to be the wise father. Certainly that is a biblical message, between king David and Solomon. I think it does rightly take up the role of guardian sometimes - ww2 is a good example. The problem is that those memories fade and power shifts, and we have only seen the tyrannical versions growing in power - both from the left and right.

It is very hard to find the wise incarnation anymore. Take a policy like food stamps. I see the oedipal mother in that... the eternal infantilizing of the child. In this culture it is even worse - it is a pathological chasing of those things that make us weak and dependent. You can't even bring up noble things like responsibility in minority communities without being accused of being an uncle tom.

Our culture does not know what a hero is anymore, and when it does identify something like heroism, 1/2 the people hate it out of fear.

1
AnschariusRexReactionary Traditionalist•

I really like this post!

Good job!

1