r/Malazan•
Violander

Questions about power, ascendants, mortals and size advantages?

SPOILERS RG

Hello,

I am currently in the middle of Reaper's Gale, and realised that one aspect is completely unclear and that is how mortal power relates to that of ascendants.

For instance, early on we saw a certain Jhagut (human size) stand up to gigantic dragons with ease.

Later on we also saw a human (Iron Bars) stand up to Tarthenal Ascendants (Midnight Tides) and would probably be able to defeat them 1v1. And we also saw (and I imagine will see) that mortal No 3 Seguleh is close to being able to fight ascendants.

We also saw a fight early on of Anomander vs Demon Lord where they switched to human form at the end of the fight.

So my questions:

  1. Why are ascendants not able to swat certain mortals if they can fight gigantic creatures? Does skill play such a big role or is there something else?

  2. Are ascendants who can veer much stronger (on average) and are they stronger in their veered form?

  3. Why would Anomander/Demon switch back to Tiste Andii form to finish the fight?

Posted Apr 18, 2018, 12:28 PM UTC

2243
eriknie007•

In general, power is not only about size and strength and ascension is not only because of strength or skill. When comparing different fights you have to remember if the fight is limited to skill or power.

As to your questions, without spoiling anything I hope:

  1. An ascendant, say Rake, can easily blast your average Joe with magic strength, he would tho be extremely hard pressed against Seguleh Nr. 3 in a purely skill-based fight.

  2. I am less certain here. When veered I'd say they loose some of them selves and the control they then have. Rake's dragon form represents him giving in to Chaos a bit. I might be wrong here.

  3. It's been a while since I read GotM but Rake and Demon were pretty closely matched in veered power and Rake has a special sword he wanted to use (RAFO about that).

As to you examples: Jhagut vs Dragon is a power based fight.

Iron Bars vs Tarthenal Ascendants is partly a skill based fight, there is more to Bars than meets the eye.

19
ViolanderOP•

So could ascendants, if they wanted to, simply blast mortals off the earth?

Let's say we have Rake vs Seguleh 2/3. I imagine if Rake was hard pressed, it would be entirely because he wanted to be?

Similarly with Iron Bars vs Tarthenal, could Tarthenals use a warren (assuming ascendants have access to one, which I read somewhere is the case) to blast him the fuck out?

2
Cryophile•

Rake could probably wipe the Seguleh off the map if he really wanted to. In levels of just pure swordsmanship, the top Seguleh may overpower him, but he has magic and is a soletaken, among other reasons. The Seguleh are just extremely talented mortals afaik.

The Jaghut are not exactly what I would call mortals, and individually are extremely powerful. A small handful could take on an army.

Iron Bars is also not a mortal. He is an Avowed of the Crimson Guard. I can't remember how much about them you would know at this point, so I won't spoil it, but I'm fairly sure they have explained what the Avowed are.

Ascendants don't necessarily have access to a warren, but most of them tend to be either magic users or one of the elder races, which would have access to warrens.

5
KayehnanatorManifestation of a Hust blade•

A small handful of Jaghut IS an army (not really spoilers but.....). Also sort of about the Avowed, ICE's books really explain what they are and why they're special.

4
Cryophile•

Yeah, I know it's more properly covered in the ICE books, but I think they at least gave a general description of the Avowed when you first encounter Iron Bars and his crew.

The Jaghut bit was enough of a spoiler I left it vague, but I don't think it's really that big a deal anyway. I love me some Jaghut humour, and the Jaghut army is amazing.

2
ViolanderOP•

Not counting the gods/avowed are there any Human ascendants that we know of? I dont mind minor spoilers

1
Cryophile•

The majority of them are probably now soletaken or d'ivers. Dessembrae may count, but that's kind of a unique case.

There are a few proper humans I can think of, but that's a major spoiler. Just RAFO!

1
Soumya1998•

Gesler and Stormy become ascendant in Deadhouse Gates. Other instances are RAFO.

1
annomandarisKurald Galain, Starvald Demelain•

The first heros are asendants, Treach, Ryllandaros, Messembre are all ascended.

There are several humans that are "near-ascendants" Most of the old family were, like Urko and Carthenon Crust, Laseen, A few of the High mages were extremely powerful and near ascention, etc.

1
nickphoto•

Ascendents could try. Gods and high mages might have something to say about it.

1
annomandarisKurald Galain, Starvald Demelain•

So could ascendants, if they wanted to, simply blast mortals off the earth if they wanted

Any magic user could blast someone if they wanted to. The segulah 3rd talk about confronting Rake, and Lady Envy says "he wont fight you, hell just blast you with magic"

Let's say we have Rake vs Seguleh 2/3. I imagine if Rake was hard pressed, it would be entirely because he wanted to be?

Magic takes time and concentration, part of the skill of the Seguleh 2 or 3rd would be they would know this, and would keep rake too busy to really use magic, when rake when to blast them they would be too athletic and would dodge it.

Similarly with Iron Bars vs Tarthenal, could Tarthenals use a warren (assuming ascendants have access to one, which I read somewhere is the case) to blast him the fuck out?

Iron bars isnt exactly human, and he actually was using that tiara, that gave him super speed, and even with it he was hard pressed. The Tarthenal didnt really have magic warrens they could use offensively, so they couldnt just "blast" him

1
ViolanderOP•

I see, thanks for the answer.

Just a follow-up on Tarthenal - did they simply not have access to warrens or just offensive one (or is it something that's just never addressed).

I guess my point is - do we know whether or not all ascendants have access to a warren?

1
annomandarisKurald Galain, Starvald Demelain•

Not all ascendants have access to a warren. Pretty much if the person has magic before ascending. Theyll have it after ascending. And magic seems to be the most common way to ascend. Thats why most ascendants have magic.

1
WhytCrayon•

In regards to Iron Bars, I take it you’ve read “Assail?” When the twist, great unveiling, happens, I couldn’t believe how unobservant I had been throughout the earlier books. In a way, so much made more sense to me, but I’m glad that I hadn’t figured it out beforehand.

2
Hubbell•

He wouldn't be pressed at all in a skill based fight. We saw what happens between him and the most skilled swordsman in the series and hands down rake was better.

-7
thebukkets•

Spoilers man, op said he's on reapers gale

4
Hubbell•

I worded it carefully. There are no spoilers.

-2
barrybario•

definitely a spoiler

2
KayehnanatorManifestation of a Hust blade•

Not sure if Rake is the most skilled per say...Traveler, Karsa, or Brys Breddict may disagree.

2
Hubbell•

Karsa is a beast but hes a barbarian who knows his limits. It ain't a spoiler to say: when karsa sees the shit going down he basically says fuck that shit, I want nothing to do with it. His greatest strength is his brute force fuck you world attitude but he is also humble in a way when he knows that won't work.

3
ViolanderOP•

Do we see Brys Beddict again in any meaningful capacity (I don't mind a minor spoiler)? He was so freaking awesome.

1
KayehnanatorManifestation of a Hust blade•

Yes, if I remember correctly? Which part are you referring to-that may jog my memory.

1
Soumya1998•

Karsa doesn't disagree, Brys is good but I don't think that good.

1
MatrimPaendragthe Only•

I think there's a few things going on.

One is that I don't think Malazan has clear 'power rankings'. IIRC Robert Jordan had a list of the magic users in WoT ranked by power so he could refer to it if they ever fought. I don't think Erikson would ever really think about doing that and would be more likely to let the circumstances of situation, plot or character decide the outcome.

A second, important point, is that many of the fights you are referring to occur in GotM and (if memory serves), a lot of those fights were gamed. In other words, they were literally decided by the role of a dice. I would also say that GotM is the trickiest of the main series to take tidbits from and apply them to rest of the series (GotMisms).

Finally, I don't think there is always a clear power gap between a non-ascended and ascended beings. So from your examples, Raest is no run-of-the-mill mortal, but a powerful Jaghut sorcerer who ruled as a cruel dictator over a large amount of Imass for a long time. He may not be an ascendant but his magic is vvv strong. Similarly Iron Bars (and the other Avowed Crimson Guard) are not ordinary mortals (you have to read the ICE books to find out more) and in a physical fight would be a good match for quite a few Ascendants. Karsa is not an Ascendant, but there's very few characters I would back to beat in in a sword fight.

Question 2. I don't think has an explicit answer, maybe someone else can chime in

I'm afraid I don't remember the circumstances of Question 3, sorry.

Also, with my Mod hat on, I have added RG spoiler flair to your tag. Please tag your posts going forward (click 'flair' under main body of your post to choose the tag).

8
ViolanderOP•

Thank you for the response, and apologies for not including spoiler-tag. I tried to make my questions spoiler-free so I thought it wouldn't be required.

I am glad it doesn't have power rankings. Whenever I see those, it's a huge hit to my "immersion".

My only follow-up questions: I thought all jaghust tyrants are ascendants, is that not the case?

3
cfmrfrpfmsf•

It’s never really delved into whether Jaghuts technically count as ascendent, but there power is comparable to ascendents every time they show up. There’s also a god that turns out to be a Jaghut, so that one definitely ascended, but not sure about others.

3
DassemUltor•

I think it's probably more along the lines of...any jaghut that has survived this long especially given certain events and pogroms against them tend to be the most powerful and are more likely to be ascendant or close to.

2
SternGlance•

Size is pretty much irrelevant with regards to "power" here. Skill and determination count for almost everything. Like, you could be poor Daru street kid who is really good at juggling and is REALLY serious about juggling. You could practice so hard that you're juggling shit that nobody should be able to juggle, and you walk around the plains juggling boulders and tree trunks and Trygalle Trade Guild wagons, like, you are REALLY SERIOUS ABOUT JUGGLING. After a hundred years or so tales of your incredible juggling feats have spread across Genabakis and the old Rhivi women tell tales of the time you saved their lives by juggling an entire herd of bhederin across a river during a terrible flood. In gratitude they leave offerings of polished stones and small grain filled sacks at the river crossing whenever they pass through that same area. These tales and offerings eventually become standardized into a kind of cult and then you're juggling mountains and mid-sized bays and being worshipped because you're the new God of Juggling. Oops.

6
nadespam•

Hahaha, I loved this. Power levl in MBotF is kind of like a meritocracy, but a lot of people are REALLY serious about being assholes, unfortunately.

3
tyrex15•

In regards to point #3, Rake very clearly wanted the demon inside Dragnipur, which he isn't wielding when veered.

3
ViolanderOP•

Good point. Frankly he should just fly around with Dragnipur in a talon. Imagine a massive dragon trying to cut someone with a sword the size of his toe.

1
tyrex15•

And now the phrase "toenail dragnipur" is bouncing around in my head. I am not sure how I feel about this.

1
annomandarisKurald Galain, Starvald Demelain•

Actually when he veers into dragon form, Dragnipur combines with him, and his mouth is the gate to darkness, so possibly if he bites someone in dragon form, they would be captured in dragnipur.

1
annomandarisKurald Galain, Starvald Demelain•

Frankly he should just fly around with Dragnipur in a talon. Imagine a massive dragon trying to cut someone with a sword the size of his toe.

I dont think he precisely wanted him in dragnipur, he hurt the demon-dragons wings when he hit him, so the demon veered back into dragon form. Then Rake, who had just promised to try to not damage the area and Kruls tower, also veered to fight as humanoids, so thered be less destruction.

1
FlameDragonSlayerMaster of the DoD•

The power levels are never really defined clearly in the Malazan world, but there's generally certain races are stronger than others, the Jaghut are nearly extinct but they are one of the strongest races, and any characters that we'll see are the cream of the crop for them to survive until now, Reast was probably an ascendant, otherwise he would not be able to survive hundreds of thousands of years as the T'lan Imass are ancient, the ancestors of modern humans. And then there are the Toblakai, they are a race that could rival the Jaghut in their prime, but their civilization has declined so they don't appear as strong but they are still a strong race. Forkrul Assail are also a very powerful race, on the same level as the previous two. K'chain Che'malle, the common variants are at the level on humans but the elites are at the level of the above races. T'lan Imass are undead so they're a level above humans The Tiste races are slightly stronger than humans Most other races are around the level around the level of humans The ascendants can be at many different levels of powers and some elites of the races can be just as strong as ascendants, it depends on the individuals. Those who can veer are much stronger than those who can't. There's other sources of power as well, like being in service to the gods as Mortal Swords, etc, or as holders of a card in the Deck of Dragons, and yea that reminds me, anyone who has claim to a card in the Deck of Dragons is gonna be significantly more powerful than other ascendants, claiming a throne etc. There's a shit ton of different ways to gain power.

3

Reast was probably an ascendant, otherwise he would not be able to survive hundreds of thousands of years

He was defeated, though, that's why he was in the barrow in the first place. Also I think all Jaghut tyrants are more or less ascendant-tier.

The Imass just have this policy that if they can't kill somebody that they defeat, they place a giant boulder and a ton of wards on them and leave them in some remote place. Like Raest, Calm, and the Jaghut lady that Karsa meets in the tower in HoC (I think they were even implied to bang there)

1
barryhakker•

One thing to consider is that people like Rake might be super powerful but fighting some opponents would still take a huge toll. For example, IIRC there was never really a question if Rake could beat Raest, it's just that the cost would be so huge he would be sufficiently weakened for someone else to take advantage. Every fool wants to take a shot at the king.

3
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
annomandarisKurald Galain, Starvald Demelain•

One thing to consider is that people like Rake might be super powerful but fighting some opponents would still take a huge toll. For example, IIRC there was never really a question if Rake could beat Raest, it's just that the cost would be so huge he would be sufficiently weakened for someone else to take advantage. Every fool wants to take a shot at the king.

Well Raest would have easily been able to defeat rake if he reached his finnest. That is why Rake was going to be there to make sure that didnt happen. In his much-weakened form, it was assumed that Rake would defeat him, but it would take a lot out of him, and would open the door for the Empire to kill Rake.

1
SCROTOCTUS•

From a storytelling perspective, "ascendancy" seems to be a rather murky concept. If it were me, I wouldn't clearly define it either. Obviously, there are levels of prowess, both martial and magical in the Malazan universe ranging from wholly inept to incalculably powerful. Erickson exploits this ambiguity to create a spectrum with Elder Gods on one end, hapless mortals on the other, and everyone else in-between. Gods Below - it can be frustrating to draw a line which probably doesn't exist in the first place.
Spoiler Alert Possible (maybe confirmed, but I have forgotten) ascendants:
-Iron Bars
-Karsa
-Fiddler
-Brys Beddict (post-poison)
-Kuru Quan (maybe an avatar?)
-Kallor
-Quick Ben (this mother******)
-Kruppe
-Vorcan
-Crokus
-Withal
-Mappo
The list goes on and on...but I'm probably way off on some of these.
I think the point is that the distance between being an average mortal and being capable of challenging Elder Gods isn't fixed. It's constantly changing and many different skills/abilities can lead one to ascendancy. This is what Ammanas exploited and Quick Ben has survived on: the uncertainty of power.

2
Neagor•

Kallor was specifically cursed never to Ascend.

2
cjspoe•

Good thing for those fancy candles...

summary....If you are not an ascendant buy some candles

1