r/learndota2•
666Ven

Position 1 from the midlane

Hi Guys, what heroes become the default 'carry' or 'pos 1' when they are in the mid lane.

Someone previously told me this and after trying to explain to a friend I started to doubt what I had heard. This discussion took place when he decided to pick safelane legion and I thought having a farm orientated mid would help make up the deficit for having a playmaking hero in the safelane. (I picked sniper and farmed my ass off)

To my understanding, if you have a sniper/OD/Am/Alch in the mid lane, they are still the position 1. Is this correct and if so what other farm heavy heroes would this encompass?

Posted May 24, 2018, 12:55 PM UTC

824
RoadKiehl•

It’s all relative. The hero who needs the most farm is your pos 1, no matter where you lane them. In your case, if your teammate picks LC safelane, almost any traditional mid could be your true pos 1.

You could also make the argument that pos 1 and 2 is determined more by playstyle than hero. If you’re playing Lich mid, but you build Radiance, Octarine, and Mjollnir (don’t), then spend your time farming in order to scale into the late game, congrats. You’re officially your team’s pos 1. It’s not good, and your hero isn’t suited to it, but that’s what role you’re playing.

In terms of traditional “pos 1” mids, it’ll normally be Dusa, Storm, Invoker, Alch, TA, or SF

7
NinoDoesHerBestDOTA Veteran•

If they are very farm dependent then they would be pos 1, so heroes like Alchemist and Medusa despite being mid would be pos 1 as they need to farm a lot to really come online, but heroes like OD and Sniper can accomplish stuff with less farm actually so they can be pos 2. Both OD and Sniper only need a couple items to really start putting in some real hurt, they ideally want to level fast, and are strong laners, hence mid is good for them. At least that's how I see it :)

5
666VenOPLD2L Champion•

In regards to the lane set-up I had, would you agree that Sniper should be farming, whilst legion acts as a playmaker? I was told I should have just stopped farming at 10 mins and went around with the legion ganking, but I felt that, if that failed, neither of us would have any farm to fall back on. (thanks in advance)

1
danjustin•

The objective to win the game is to destroy towers then their ancient. You do this by killing heroes.

I say this as the baseline to your question. Say your team is ready to fight at 10mins. You probably will have dragon Lance and phase boots, that's about it. Your LC will likely have a blink and no blademail yet. At this time its hard to jump and kill people without more stuns/damage. If you have stuns and damage (like a lion maybe) then yes it makes sense to go fight...if not, get your maelstrom and more items.

If you do fight, you win, now you have an advantage...sniper needs to stay in that lane and press. An early win at 10 minutes should result in a tower falling. You rinse and repeat. But the entire time you as sniper should farm your lane. You should not share a lane with LC as your not taking fights then. LC either needs to farm a lane alone or get off the map for a duel. Sniper needs to be full on pressing lanes at all times. LC and his teammates need to be there to shield Sniper and fight heroes.

So I think 10 minutes is okay to start rotation, because sniper with shrapnel and dragon Lance is actually very OP early on.

If you watch higher end matches you will notice the big difference is how quickly they start fighting while low level pubs always say, I need my next item first! There's always a next item......

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666VenOPLD2L Champion•

Thanks, this is a really comprehensive answer, much appreciated. The issue I had was drawing even in mid and their mid never left to help fights, he was content to keep me in lane so I never got the chance to snowball

1
NinoDoesHerBestDOTA Veteran•

I wouldn't say there's a clear cut answer to that, both LC and Sniper can be useful in early fights without many items.

2
PsychicFoxWithSpoonsI come from a place where darkness is light!•

Position 1 isn't really about carrying. It's about farming. In that sense, all midlane heroes are position 1 because midlane is ALL about farm. All good midlaners need to be able to CS safely, then transition to shoving out the wave and farming safe jungle camps.

However, you are correct that some midlaners tend towards position 1 and others take position 2 or even 3. Generally, this is dependent on how much farm they need to come online. Out of the META mids (stuff like luna and antimage doesn't count), you end up falling into 3 camps of position 2 mids, some of which are more like 1.5s (invoker is a very good example of this), and others which are more like 2.5s (like Necrophos).

  1. Invoker, Storm, Meepo, Medusa, Arc Warden, Tiny, Phantom Lancer, Ember, Sniper
  2. OD, Gyro, SF, Qop, TA, Clinkz, Puck, Mirana
  3. Necro, DP, Lesh, Lina, Viper, Silencer, Windranger

The 1.5s tend to farm up to anywhere between 15 and 20 minutes. You should be aiming for your 3 core items by at minimum 20 minutes, and then you will be the strongest hero on the map and can kill pretty much anyone. If you can't make that timing, you're generally going to be splitpushing side lanes instead. This is your 22/0 invoker who got a lucky sunstrike onto the enemy CM and used it to get 2 kills in lane on the enemy Shadow Fiend, which he then turned into a 14 minute aghs through speedy farm thanks to the free damage from the ally Drow Ranger and basically one shot your Dragon Knight with meteor cold snap.

The true 2s tend to farm 10-15 minutes for their core items and then try to snowball off of kills from side lanes and eventually take over one portion of the map by themselves. This is your 11/0 QOP who gets 2 kills mid, 3 more kills top, then farms the enemy jungle (along with anyone in it) until your Spectre is too big to kill. If you can't make your item timings, you're going to be participating in teamfights and sniping off heroes until you're strong enough to hunt the enemy supports.

The 2.5s farm 1 core item at 10 minutes (either euls, blink, or mek) and then go for blood with their team. This is your 5/0 DP who roamed bot at 8 minutes with the haste rune to get a double kill with her ulti and then take the botlane tower uncontested.

All 3 patterns are viable in solo queue and follow more or less the same game plan of "get as big as possible as fast as possible and then try to conclusively win the game." Position 1s who are safelane carries, by contrast, don't really get huge spikes from their item purchases. A Luna who manages to get her Manta at 10 minutes, for example, isn't really much more of a threat than she was before she got the Manta (even though she's definitely on track to smash through your base like a hot knife through butter at 30 minutes). However, if you see a Qop with Orchid at 10 minutes, she can straight up delete anyone on your team from existence whenever she wants to.

By that metric you can see that Sniper and Medusa are the only true position 1 mids. Everyone else is just a position 2 who takes a little longer to come online.

4
BrennendKryzel•

Invoker. Really it depends on draft. Whoever has kill threat highest cannot be pos 1. That's a general idea I think. Other please correct me

2
666VenOPLD2L Champion•

Sorry what do you mean by 'kill threat highest'?

3
BrennendKryzel•

I mean like suppose you got viper and void. Then void is pos 1 and viper pos 2. Since viper has more kill threat that means he should be active killing people (or threatening to). Hence he cannot farm as much as void hence he is pos 2.

Suppose there is Medusa and void. Here Void has higher kill threat so he has to farm less than Medusa and pressure the enemy by his plays (atleast when Chrono is off cd ). Hence he farms less and is pos 2(or Even pos 3 it makes no difference to the logic). Keep in mind farm pos =/= lane

1
Kjorf•

It also depends on your own team, you wouldn't put am mid at all as he is a weak laner.

But if you have an OD all he really needs is a blink and Pike and can work towards a bkb and he will do enough damage, but if you have a safe lane gyro with you he should still get priority of farm

1
666VenOPLD2L Champion•

I've seen a fair bit of AM mid, especially at high mmr over the past 6 months

1
NinoDoesHerBestDOTA Veteran•

It only happens when there's a favourable matchup. If enemy reveals their mid early for example. Against some mid heroes, AM had absolutely no chance. Especially ones with lots of wave clear that will have you under tower all game.

1
BrennendKryzel•

Does AM build a battlefury here as well? Or does he go for a more fighting build?

1
ljagodz4.2k Creep Score Enthusiast•

Likely same build, this is a matter of a favourable matchup in the laning stage. That said, you can go different builds on AM depending on the draft you are up against, regardless of whether you are mid or safelane.

2
NinoDoesHerBestDOTA Veteran•

Skipping BF on AM is never viable, I would say.

1
polovstiandances•

Alch, Medusa, Invoker, Lycan, Juggernaut, Lina (kinda), Sniper, PL are the only ones I can think of.

1
Burning_magic•

Its kind of a case by case basis but the position one either sits in the safe or mid lane depending on his laning capabilities. A weaker pos 1 in terms of laning i.e spectre would go safe lane, whereas someone who can lane very well on their own i.e lina would go mid.

You should also be asking would my pos 1 be better of midding or safe lane and not asking is my mid better of as position 1 or 2.

1
Burning_magic•

Matchup may also affect who goes to which lane.

1
Nwball•

Dusa.

1
itachifan035The solo support in 0-1k SEA•

Meepo!

1
eodigsdgkjw•

Yeah your understanding is correct. AM mid is troll though. Medusa, Storm, and SF are other pos 1 mids.

For the purposes of pubs though unless you are like 4k+ it probably doesn't matter too much what you pick. If your mid picks Dusa and your safelane picks Luna, it's honestly not the end of the world. I think the only time where it's genuinely worth adjusting your safelane pick to fit your midlane pick is if you have an Alch mid.

At most if my midlane pick is greedy, I'd just adjust my playstyle. AKA if I was playing Jugg I'd go Drums or Yasha first over Battlefury.

1
NinoDoesHerBestDOTA Veteran•

AM mid is troll though.

Depends on MMR and matchup, I would be very comfortable picking AM mid against the right hero.

1
aghhmyachingblooddivine 5 •

position is farm so sniper and od are pos 2. my fighting antimage build is pos 2. alchemist and bfury antimage in the midlane are position 1

1