[Spoilers C2E22] I'm a little confused about Shadowfell and Hexblade

SpoilerDiscussion

I got fascinated by Fjord's falchion, did some Googling, and got confused about Shadowfell. Below are the "facts" I've gleaned. It could be some of them are wrong and hence my confusion.

  • Fjord is a Hexblade Warlock, which is a subclass defined in Xanathar's Guide to Everything.
  • A Hexblade's patron is from the Shadowfell.
  • A warlock's patron is not a god. God's have many followers. Patronage is generally 1-1.
  • Thar Ampala (from C1) was in the Shadowfell.
  • The Raven Queen's domain is the Shadowfell.
  • Gods in D&D are not all-powerful. They don't necessarily know everything.
  • Shadowfell is the opposite of Feywild.

My first question is C1-related: How was it that the Raven Queen didn't know about the existence of Thar Ampala? I can buy not knowing the plans of Vecna. But the existence of an entire city in her domain with three sucking siphons?

Fjord's patron therefore probably will interact with the Raven Queen somehow. A powerful being operating in the Shadowfell is either an ally or enemy of RQ. I'm assuming there are seas in the Shadowfell and so watery patrons can hide from RQ.

Jester's Trickster deity is speculated to be from the Feywild. If so, the Trickster will therefore be in opposition to Fjord's patron.

If all the above is true, it implies Fjord will be put into a difficult dilemma at some point. Either in conflict with RQ or the Trickster. The Shadowfell seems to have a lot of lore in D&D and having a patron from Shadowfell's seas cannot be a good thing.

Posted Jun 15, 2018, 7:17 PM UTC

018
GlumalonThen I walk away•

Thus far, it seems Matt and Travis are just ignoring most or all of the hexblade lore and doing their own thing. Additionally, Matt's version of the Raven Queen is very different from the 5e Raven Queen. For example, Matt's RQ is a deity, and she does not appear to dwell in the Shadowfell at all.

52
atreaderOP•

I see. Well, my facts are wrong then. Thanks!

5
[deleted]•

[deleted]

13
TrystisOld Magic•

She might dwell somewhere in the shadowfell, it is an entire plane of existence so it's pretty big.. did he specify where she lives, I dont remember

2
GlumalonThen I walk away•

He hasn't explicitly said she doesn't that I recall, but based on Vecna's presence in the Shadowfell and the way Matt has explained the Divine Gate, it would be strange for the Shadowfell to also be the Raven Queen's domain. Much like we saw with Sarenrae and Pelor, I'd wager most or all of Matt's deities just have their own plane/demiplane.

6
AtlaStar•

Not necessarily, since basically the qualifier for a hexblade is to have a patron that can create sentient or artifact weapons forged of the magics of the shadowfell. Nothing yet has suggested that his patron doesn't actually reside there nor has it suggested it isn't powerful enough to create sentient magical weapons.

1
GlumalonThen I walk away•

It's certainly possible, but all of the flavor so far feels more like a Far Realm/Great Old One/aberration theme IMO.

2
AtlaStar•

Not personally getting that vibe myself since aberrations et al don't have a monopoly on glowing singular eyes necessarily.

Even then, could just be an aberration from the shadowfell too.

1
TwilightOmen•

Patronage is generally 1-1.

This is not exactly correct. A patron can have several warlocks. There is nothing preventing one from having multiple.

Fjord's patron therefore probably will interact with the Raven Queen somehow

One of the possible entities behind the force that the hexblade warlocks form a contract with, is the raven queen. Check Xanathar's.

Jester's Trickster deity is speculated to be from the Feywild. If so, the Trickster will therefore be in opposition to Fjord's patron.

Now this is simply not correct. There is no reason why they should be in opposition. The feywild and shadowfell are opposite planes but their inhabitants could for all intents and purposes agree and cooperate in many things, plus many inhabitants of these planes are not native to them. These are not outer planes where alignment is a cosmological force. Things do not work that way here.

If all the above is true, it implies Fjord will be put into a difficult dilemma at some point.

All the above is not true, there are a few errors, but that does not mean there won't be a dilemma.

having a patron from Shadowfell's seas cannot be a good thing.

How do you figure? Do you think it is worse than a great old one? Worse than a fiend, aka, archdevil or demon lord?

You are taking too much as granted and certain. You should relax :)

18
atreaderOP•

You mention a few things that I'm having trouble reconciling.

The Raven Queen can be a Warlock's patron: That makes no sense. She's a God. She should have Paladins or Clerics. I thought what distinguished a Warlock patron was precisely that it wasn't a God.

I know, I know. I should probably stop applying logic to D&D. :)

Creatures from the Feywild and Shadowfell can be friends: I always thought they were antagonistic. Like all the dark elves end up in Shadowfell and all the regular ones start off in Feywild. But I guess conceptually they could be friends.

I assumed the Shadowfell was, by default, bad. After all, why was Thar Amphala/Vecna in the Shadowfell? Sure, there's the Nine Hells and the Fire Plane, but Critical Role paints the Shadowfell to be a bad place. I guess there can be more than one bad plane. Ergo, Fjord's patron - bad. (But yes, if his patron was from the Nine Hells, that would be a worse level of bad.)

Again, maybe applying too much logic.

Other folks in this thread have educated me that anything could be home brewed. e.g. Fjord's patron could be one of Pelor's Planetars that has a fetish for sea water. So any and all axioms could change.

-7
Satsuma0Team Nott•

Mike Mearls actually did some talking about Warlocks, Paladins, and Clerics in various D&D Beyond 5e videos in promotion for The Xanathar's Guide to Everything.

Essentially, the same entity can have all three types of classes attached to them, instead the difference between the three is the level of connection/familiarity between the bestower and the player. A 5e Cleric worships a deity, but their magic is arcane in nature. They learn to wield powers that correspond to their deity from different churches. Different worships of the same god can wield magic that respect their faith in different ways, hence the different domains one god can have aspects for. The faithful can pray to their god and receive contact with them if acknowledged. If they pissed their deity off, they wouldn't lose their powers or anything, but they're connected with their deity through willing subservience.

A 5e Paladin worships an ideal as much as they do a deity, and their conviction gives shape to their divine powers. If their conviction faltered, they may fall, but their power never came from a god in the first place. They are inspired by a set of beliefs or a God's values, or some specific virtue or cause.

A 5e Warlock's bond with their patron, in contrast with the other two, is more personal. Direct contact with the Patron was involved. Either the Patron reached out and chose the individual, or the individual made a deal in direct conversation with their Patron, or some ritual the Patron used or had performed on them bound them to a Patron. In any case, the Patron granted some tiny piece of power hoping to get something in return. Once bestowed, it can never be taken away. The Warlock has magic forced into their blood forever, they made their direct deal with the Devil (so to speak) and now the power is theirs to wield however they wish.

Some Warlocks have already paid the "price" for their power when they received it precampaign. Some still have a debt that they must balance with their God/Patron, and will have to fulfill that debt or face their Patron's spite/wrath. Nonetheless, you can easily betray your Patron... just keep in mind what an angry Patron must be capable of if he could awaken powers inside you.

The only reason a God is not a common Warlock patron is because Gods often don't "need" anything and aren't likely to meddle in the affairs of one individual mortal in such a small and direct way. They're usually above such things, but not incapable.

In essence, for any given supernatural being, a Cleric of them is a devotee and student, a Paladin of them is an imitator/fanboy, and a Warlock is just a crazy uncle who you gave a small one-time loan to. Maybe Sarenrae wanted to honor the child of a cleric that served her faithfully in life, and thus placed one of their progeny under her protection when they came into harm and it became clear they had a magical destiny in store for them. Boom, Celestial Warlock who gained their power from Sarenrae.

That's what matters. That when a Warlock is involved, there was a direct connection that implies no continued need for a bond, whereas the Paladin and Cleric's devotions are more from afar and impersonal and yet more lifestyle defining/constant.

19
TrystisOld Magic•

It's not that you're applying too much logic. You're applying restrictions that simply aren't there.

13
TwilightOmen•

The Raven Queen can be a Warlock's patron

You misunderstand. She is possibly BEHIND THE FORCE. Not the force itself. Just read Xanathar's. Really. It's a published book.

That makes no sense. She's a God. She should have Paladins or Clerics.

And what prevents a god from having clerics, paladins and warlocks ?

I thought what distinguished a Warlock patron was precisely that it wasn't a God.

Well you thought wrong. There is nothing in any rulebook saying this. What distinguishes is the contract that exists between warlock and patron.

I always thought they were antagonistic.

Why ?

Like all the dark elves end up in Shadowfell and all the regular ones start off in Feywild.

If by dark elves you mean drow, they are not in shadowfell, they are in the underdark.

I assumed the Shadowfell was, by default, bad.

Again, why? The shadowfell is neither a good nor evil place. It simply is not. It's a shadowey, worn out place, yes, but this is not evil.

After all, why was Thar Amphala/Vecna in the Shadowfell?

This makes no sense. Why were XYZ in the shadowfell? Because they went there. Vecna was born in the prime material plane, and moved to many places. In fact, in 4th edition, Vecna was an enemy of the Raven queen.

Not only that, but even after ascending, he does not have a permanent base. He moves around from plane to plane. The fact that at any given point in time (something that only happened in critical role, mind you) should tell you nothing, unless the members of critical role themselves are also judged by it since at that time, they too were there.

But yes, if his patron was from the Nine Hells, that would be a worse level of bad

Again, not necessarily. All devils spawned in the nine hells are lawful evil. But that does not preclude entities in other planes from ALSO being lawful evil, and maybe even more so than those in the nine hells.

I think you should pick up the books and read. Heck, you might suddenly have your perspective thrown all over once you realize that not only is critical role taking a lot of artistic license on the nature of entities and planes, but also your view on the lore as written is also incorrect.

3
GhostTypeTrainer•

Jester follows the Traveler and so far there's nothing concrete/canon linking it to the Feywild, that's mostly fan speculation for now.

8
atreaderOP•

Dangit. I've no idea where the Trickster came from. I must subconsciously be assuming the Traveler is the God of Trickery. Basically Loki.

1
faytshands•

Indeed you can play and change stuff how you like. For example my Hexblade patron is one of the Swords of Answering or maybe even Fragarach itself. I'm not sure yet and the DM has complete control over that

3
CurseoftheJambinoTeam Fjord•

Yeah my DM and I created a patron for my Hexblade that is based off of a Balrog.

3
ChanceTheKnightI would like to RAGE!•

Aside from your first bullet point. None of that is fact in Matts world/campaign. So don't expect anything to line up with "typical" d&d lore.

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AverageJoe417Team Percy•

Honestly the base flavor for hexblades is borning and edgy. So it’s common for people to make hexblades with the flavor of other patrons (fey, fiends, old ones). Fjord’s patron is 100% a great old one or something similar.

1