Returning player (Diamond level) - need overview of current meta
Hi, I haven't played since HotS. I quickly got back into Diamond league but I think it's mostly because of my mechanics. When I lose it's usually some early or mid game timing and I don't how to counter it, e.g. today I lost to some sort of cyclone-SCV repair all in; when I saw the reactor factory I thought hellions for map control.
And earlier again I lost to some chargelot archon comp which I haven't seen since 2011.
So general advice of what is 'standard' would be appreciated. For example, I saw the player Serral usually get his 4th really early (or what was considered really early before) in ZvT.
Thanks!
Posted Aug 16, 2018, 1:37 PM UTC
17
The fourth base is usually taken between 6-7 min, depending on what T is doing. Check that Serral game - I think you will find that the T went for an earlier third (or Serral had just crushed their attack).
Welcome to the club! Diamond is where everyone knows HOW to play starcraft, but we have a lot of tedious refining to do. I keep a notebook with the timings of specific attacks and I recommend that you do the same. Knowing how to interpret scouting information is crucial!
Ling/Bane/Hydra is standard in both ZvP and ZvT Bio. Roach/Hydra/Lurker is standard in ZvP. Roach/Hydra/Swarmhost/Viper is standard against ZvT mech. Ling/Bane into Roach/Ravager into Roach/Ravager/Hydra/Lurker is standard in ZvZ.
For Terran, 1-base play is either a marine rush (with or without drop) or a battlemech rush (cyclone/hellion); 2-base Terran are either a Maru-style (2/1/1 marine/medivac with tanks later on - sticks to 2 bases and lower SCV's for a longer time) or an Innovation style (1/1/1 with a 5 min harassment, faster third base, and a stronger 2/2 marine/tank push). Mech players usually turtle on 3 bases, harass with hellions, and then push out when 2/2 finishes or they feel advantaged.
For Protoss, 1-base play is either a canon contain into stalker/immortal or some weird gateway rush or DT's. 2-base stargate openers are most common with a third at ~5 min. The pro's do archon drops, but I don't see a lot of Diamonds try this. They either attack with a 2-base timing or two-base all-in (there are MANY varieties, some even include a third nexus to give the impression that they're not all in), or they sit on three bases and amass a gateway army with storm and immortals, or they sit on three bases and tech to skytoss.
Would it be possible for you to share the notebook with those timings? I am as well a returning player and I forgot all the timings. Even the 2-1-1 build, which was easy for me, I can not really understand when it is happening (based on what) or when should I start building units. Thanks!
I don't have a digital copy, but for 2/1/1 there's a couple medivacs dropping 16 marines at 5 min. Check out PiG's tutorial video to see the Terran perspective. Attacks from 1/1/1 also hit between 4:45-5:00 (when done right). For a Rule of 1 Gas opening, you will want to have about 2 dozen lings at 5 min (I make a bunch from 4:20-4:40). All of these timings and observations assume that your opponent is doing their build correctly. They're probably not, even in Diamond league, so expect to see (and by "to see" I mean "to lose to") some weird crap, late attacks, or delayed attacks with more units (4 medivacs/32 marines, e.g.). It's all part of the learning the process!
If terran is on one base (poke at the front with lings) then cut drones, make a baneling nest, and start making a ton of lings and queens. They'll attack ~5 min with 4-6 cyclones/4-8 hellbats, or a bunch of marines, or some crazy composition of their own machinations. I faced a double medivac widow mine drop of one base the other night!
If terran is on two base, then sacrifice an overlord at 3:30. See what your opponent is doing, check out their army composition, and spy on tech lab upgrades. 2/1/1 is straightforward - there will be two barracks, one with a reactor, the other will probably have a tech lab researching stim.
The 1/1/1 has a lot more possibilities. The reactor is usually on the factory and powering out hellions, though it can also be making cyclones or widow mines (CHECK!). A reactor on the barracks means they will apply some marine pressure. A tech lab on the starport usually means cloaked banshees (see if the lights are flashing!). A reactor on the starport means either medivacs for drops or liberators for harassment. It's imperative to constantly be scouting to know what's going on; opponent is either expanding, teching, going all in on units, or inefficiently trying to do all of the above).
Thanks for this - super helpful! Any chance you could share something similar for ZvP?:>
ZvP has a lot more weirdness than ZvT. Scouting is key.
First, we need to rule out 1-base shenanigans. Your second overlord should fly in a few circles around your natural hatchery while it is morphing. This will spot proxy pylons behind the natural minerals. If you find a warping pylon, then you can shut down the canon rush with drones. If you find a warping canon, then revert to plan B. There are a bunch of threads and instructional videos on what to do in either scenario.
Other Protoss 1-base builds are less common, but you'll still see them from time to time. These include proxy 3gate, in-base 3-gate, or a delayed 4-gate rush (I haven't seen anything else personally). Your scouting overlord will not find a natural expansion, so you need to cut drones, build a spine, and start teching to roaches. The proxy zealots attack once your natural finishes. If the gateways are not proxied, then you have 1-2 more minutes to prepare. Do NOT saturate your natural until you're sure that the toss is also expanding.
2-base protoss are a lot more difficult to scout. When in doubt or in the dark, make a spore in each mineral line at 3:45 and a roach warren at ~4:15. Sac your scouting overlord at ~3:30 to scout your opponent. Be prepared to sacrifice the second overlord, which should be rallied near their base after scouting your natural for canons. You will find that nearly all of the 2-base openers have some mechanism to deny overlord scouting and hide information (stalker, phoenix, etc).
The most common 2-base build among pros includes a stargate with 2 oracles and a phoenix, and then teching to templar for an archon drop. The phoenix usually finishes first to kill the scouting overlord. Spores and queen micro help mitigate the damage, but expect to lose 3-5 workers. Toss players should be trying to keep their oracles alive, but many diamond players opt to kill 5-8 drones while losing their oracles. The archon drops (~5:00 min) are meant to tax our APM and force us to build units instead of drones. Remember to keep injecting.
2-base openers are very diverse and it's often difficult to tell what our opponent is doing. The number of gases they take can give indications, but many toss players know this and try to deceive you. If there are no gases or only 1-2 gas in the main, then expect a chargelot all-in. If you scout 2 stargate, then expect 5-8 phoenix in your base between 5-6 min. A Twilight Counsel indicates glaive adepts (~5-6 min), DT's, high templar, or chargelots. The robo will usually make a prism, though sometimes it makes a bunch of immortals for an all-in. The best way to know if they're going all-in is to sac overlords to see if they're warping a bunch of gateways. That's not always possible, so poke the front with zerglings to see if they're massing a bunch of units (easy way to scout glaive adepts and chargelot all-ins).
The third base is taken ~5:15. This could mean that your opponent wants to sit on three base and attack with a higher tech army. This could also mean that your opponent wants you to THINK that they want to macro, but in reality they're delaying their all-in by about a minute. Again, poke with lings.
I think that you see weird crap from toss a lot more often than the other races - at least in Diamond. Strategies like 2 base carriers, mass void rays, DT swarms, and mass oracle will certainly come up from time to time. Diamond players tend to play the way that wins them games, and that often means dying to strangely timed attacks that the specific opponent cooked up. Just last week I lost to glaive adepts when my opponent cut workers to get 6 adepts to my base at 4:45 (I scouted it, by my defense for glaives is ready by 5:00-5:15). It can also work in your advantage. They may go for a strange composition (immortal, void ray, archon, templar, zealot), so a well-timed attack can outright kill them. I always attack with roach/hydra off four bases between 8-9 min. If my macro was decent, then I should be close to max. If their macro was bad or if their composition was very strange (read: too heavy on gas), then I usually win on the spot. Day9 called this the "just f'ing kill them" strategy.