If you had to pick the 5 best offensive and defensive players of all time using the G-G-F-F-C format who would you pick?
My list would be
Offense
G- Kobe Bryant G- Michael Jordan F- LeBron James F- Kevin Durant C- Kareem
Defense
G- Gary Payton G- Michael Jordan F- Kevin Garnett F- Tim Duncan C- Ben Wallace
Posted Aug 21, 2018, 8:53 PM UTC · edited
Offense:
Curry
MJ
LeBron
Dirk
Wilt
Defense:
Payton
MJ
Pippen
Duncan
Russell (Center is tough here: Russell, Hakeem, Mutombo, Wallace all seem like great choices)
Having Dirk over KD is comical.
It's not comical. That implies that KD is far superior to Dirk offensively. He may be better but not by that much. I'd have Dirk at the 5 tho and KD at the 3 or 4, depending on where LJ plays.
KD is far superior to Dirk offensively, hence the comedy of it.
That's such a ridiculous statement. I'm just going to assume you didn't watch the NBA before 2013.
Wilt is the best defensive center of all time as well. No one has had the combination of strength/speed/vertical leap/length quite like him, plus he averaged more unofficial blocks than Russell while besting him in rebounds as well.
Every single Center of the 60s had less points per game with worse TS% percentage against Bill compared to when they played againat Wilt.. Wilt was a monster defensively for sure, but Russell had the greatest defensive impact ever
That's a team stat. Individually, Wilt was the greater defender. There's never been a greater defender in fact.
Hakeeeeeeeeeem Olajuwon...
Yeah, Wilt is the greatest defender in NBA history... if you pretend Russell, Duncan, Olajuwon, Wallace, Robinson, Mutombo, and some others never existed
I think Curry is better pure offense than Kobe.
These are great teams, very worthy players. You can make cases for other guys, like Wilt, Shaq, Dirk, Bird, Magic for offense, and Russell, Hakeem, Rodman, Mutombo, Pippen for defense.
Less heralded, but you can actually make cases for Dantley on offense, and Moncrief and Tony Allen on D.
Dantley averaged 30/6/4 on 56-82%, 63% TS in his 7 year Jazz career, and he did it as a 6'5 200 pound post-up threat, and not even a freak athlete like Barkley.
Moncrief is a 2-time DPOY guard who actually won the first 2 DPOYs ever awarded.
Tony Allen isn't very famous historically speaking cuz he's a pure specialist, and actually only has 6 All-D nods, 3 First Team. But his defense was really at an all time level, and he was arguably the best defender on the 08 Celtics (Rondo and aging KG great too), one of the GOAT defenses. He contained guys like Kobe and KD in grinding playoff battles.
Curry is a better perimeter shooter than Kobe, but he isn't a better offensive player. Kobe could score in more ways, from more spots on the floor, and his size allowed him to score against a wider array of defenders.
Kobe is for sure an all time great shot maker, but Curry is the most efficient volume scorer ever, like ~10% better TS%. His gravity also has an amazing effect elevating his teammates. He's not just a perimeter shooter, he just shot like 60% on midrange this past season, and he's regularly one of the most efficient guards at finishing at the rim.
Curry isn't the GOAT mid-range shooter, or even all-time great at it either. He's not even really elite. He's good. Nice try trying to use the one outlier season he had though.
TS% isn't a measure of "best." As you correctly pointed out, it is one measure of efficiency. Things like offensive versatility, consistency, production, etc. factor into best. And, again, Kobe could score in more ways than Steph and Kobe's size made him a much more versatile scorer. He also scored more and did so more consistently. And offensive Kobe at his best is better than offensive Curry at his.
But we can agree to disagree.
I never said he was the GOAT midrange shooter, and I never tried to pass off his 60% midrange season as his baseline. Even doing it once is like the 50-40-90 club, Kobe never came close. In fact Kobe never even shot 50% from midrange and about half his seasons he shot sub-40%. Curry def is an all time great midrange shooter, calling him merely good not even elite is laughable.
TS% isn't the full picture but it is the best holistic measure of efficiency, which is a very important part of scoring. The rest of your comment is vague handwavey bullshit without a shred of evidence, aside from Kobe was bigger lol. Kobe at his best never came close to the 67% TS level Curry has reached.
You're waving your hands, putting words in my mouth, and clearly biased af against Curry if you'd just call him only a good midrange shooter. I respect the hell outta Kobe, he's a lege and I'm sure it's possible to make a reasonable case for him, but you clearly aren't capable of that.
Scoring a lot of points on as few shots as possible means you are great at offense. Efficiency means you take less shots to score more. Scoring in many styles doesn’t make you better at offense.
Nash
MJ
LeBron
Dirk
Kareem
Payton
Moncrief
Pippen
Rodman
Hakeem
Curry or Magic for offense PG?
They're in contention but I gotta give it to Nash for running historically great offenses that went to shit whenever he was off the floor without any HOF teammates.
No tony allen?
Moncrief 2x DPOY
Hakeem wasn't better than Russell or Wilt, and Wilt was better at his peak than Kareem ever was.
Hakeem has an argument for being the greatest defender of all time
Sure, if Wilt/Russell never existed.
Nash over any number of other G? No.
Dirk over KD? Absolutely not.
Moncrief over MJ? Hell no!
Defense
G - Smush Parker
G - James Harden
F - Brian Scalabrine
F - Carmelo Anthony
C - Kwame Brown
Offense
G - Jimmer Fredette
G - Wizards MJ
F - Brian Scalabrine
F - Anthony Bennett
C - Michael Olowokandi
Oh sorry I thought this was for the All-NBA 600th team
Disrespect to Bruno Caboclo is real
Offense
G: Michael Jordan G: Steph Curry F: LeBron James F: Kevin Durant C: Kareem
Defense
G: Gary Payton G: Michael Jordan F: Kawhi Leonard F: Tim Duncan C: Ben Wallace
Put Scottie Pippen at the 4 he needs to be on it to guard KD and if not Pippen I would put KG
Who said these teams were playing each other lol
Offense:
Curry - Jordan - LeBron - Durant - Kareem
Defense:
GP - Moncrief - Pippen - Duncan - Olajuwon
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My bad Ill change that
Offense:
G: Michael Jordan
G: Magic Johnson
F: Kevin Durant
F: LeBron James
C: Wilt Chamberlain
Defense:
G: Michael Jordan
G: Gary Payton
F: Scottie Pippen
F: Tim Duncan
C: Ben Wallace
Crazy thing is I've seen all these guys play (on tv) but wilt the even crazier thing is there's alot of fans now days that never got to enjoy the play of mj the glove or pippen true legends.
First team Offense:
G: Michael Jordan
G: Magic Johnson
F: LeBron James
F: Elgin Baylor
C: Wilt Chamberlain
First team Defense:
G: Gary Payton
G: Michael Jordan
F: Scottie Pippen
F: Dennis Rodman
C: Hakeem Olajuwon
Offense
PG: Steph Curry SG: MJ SF: Lebron PF: Durant C: Wilt
Defense
PG: MJ SG:Tony Allen SF: Pippen PF: KG C: Tim Duncan
Offense
Curry
Jordan
LeBron
Bird
Wilt
Defense
Payton
Jordan
Garnett
Duncan
Russell
Offense
Magic, Jordan, LeBron, Dirk, Wilt
Defense
Payton, Jordan, Pippen, Garnett, Wilt
Wilt wasn't even the best defensive center of his own era.
Sure he was. He was bigger, stronger, faster, more explosive, higher vertical, and averaged more RPG and BPG than Russell.
And? Look The backpick Goats analysis.. Opponents Centers played much worse against Russell(ppg and Ts%) than against Wilt.. The Celtics were unbelievably better than the rest of the league defensively with a defense anchored and masterminded by Russell.. Being a better athlete (Russell was a freak as well) doesn't say much at the end of the day.. LeBron has all those things over pippen and many big men have them over Duncan.. But that doesnt make them better defenders
That's a team stat. Individually, no one has ever been a greater defender than Wilt. And the LeBron/Pippen comp is a piss poor example because Pippen at his peak averaged more rebounds and blocks than LeBron has in a slower pace at that. I have no idea what "backpick goat analysis" is, nor would it convince me that a smaller, less athletic, less statistically dominant player is a better defender.
No Karl Malone on anyone’s list? Possibly the best offensive PF ever along with Dirk
Barkley had historic TS% despite chucking (heh) threes for no reason.
You had me until Ben Wallace. Replace him with Bill Russell and you've got yourself one hell of a list. That said, I also might replace KG with Scottie Pippen.
Magic MJ LeBron Bird KAJ
Payton MJ KG Duncan Russell
3 guys who would play center in 2018 seems odd
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Peak performance:
O - Curry/MJ/Bird/LBJ/Kareem
D - KC Jones/MJ/Pippen/KG/Russell
Tough to leave off:
O - Magic/KD/Wilt/Nash/Malone/Shaq/Hakeem
D - Kidd/Havlicek/Cousy/Frazier/Duncan/Hakeem/Robinson/Kareem
Curry, Jordan, LeBron, Durant/Bird, Wilt
Glove, Jordan, Pippen, Duncan/Rodman, Russell
Present in both = 🐐