Source
r/MagicArena•
formlessforce

The reward structure for Exploration (and similar modes) needs a lot of work.

Discussion

Let me start by saying that the new Exploration mode (start with 9 cards, play 2 lands per turn, no max hand size) has me really excited to brew a good deck to play it. It's got the Johnny part of my brain wanting to solve the "puzzle" the format presents and build around its unique rules. I'm already sold on these "tavern brawl" style modes.

So I want to let Wizards know that I think the way the buy-in and the rewards are set up actively detracts from the fun and casual nature of the mode.

I put in 600 gold, and because I didn't win two games before I lost two games, I'm out 500 gold with nothing but an uncommon ICR to show for it. I'm lucky enough to have over 20,000 gold saved up, so I can keep throwing myself at it, but newer players will bankrupt themselves after a couple attempts at what could be a really fun way to play outside the meta.

I understand they want to keep the "tournament" part of it short so people without a lot of free time can play it and get out, but if they need to make it a little harder to earn a pack so they can lower the buy-in price, I think that would be a huge positive. I can only speak for myself, but with modes like Exploration, getting to play more games is the real reward. 600 gold to play only 2-3 games of a fun and goofy queue really defeats the purpose. I'm not sure who that's supposed to appeal to, but I hope they continue to tweak that as the beta continues.

​

Posted Aug 24, 2018, 4:08 PM UTC

7757
UdaroYargle•

They need to explore better reward structures.

40
Breidr•

Boo-urns

6
Evochron13Dimir•

BOOOOOOO

3
Shaz716•

If they want the compys out and keep the casual crowd in. It should be 100g entry. 50g+1uc for 0 wins, 50g + 2uc for 1 win and 100g + 2uc with a low chance for a rare at 2 wins. There, small rewards to say hey thanks for playing. No real loss of gold. People keep inserting that 100 to play something fun.

21
irishexit444•

I like this a lot. Much of the reward in the current structure is in the pack. Some people dont care about the pack so assign it much less value than 1000 gold. They just want to use their current card pool,brew up some jank and play the event. Maybe they pick up some cards, but mainly they just want to PLAY - the value of the pack is such a strong headwind that the current structure makes playing for play's sake so painful.

By keeping total gold reward low 'competitive grinders' are incentivized to steer clear. Wotc still has a rake on gold, but instead of a pack, players lose less gold per entry so they can keep entering.

6
IJourden•

This is spot on.

If your real goal is to appeal to casuals, having a top heavy prize structure is a disaster... and the jump from one win to two is over ten times in value?

That's the opposite of casual.

​

3
AintEverLuckyBoros•

You're right, people on this sub started dragging WOTC about these reward structures the minute after they were announced. The devs haven't said shit since.

The only real recourse we have now is to boycott these events & just not play them

20
Moutch•

The devs actually answered. They said something like: we hope the reward structure will keep competitive players out of these formats.

I hope it will keep everyone out of this format so they feel forced to change it.

23
mertcanhekim•

The structure is so bad, it will keep the casuals out as well. If you can't get 2 wins, it's a strict loss for you.

13
3uphor1a•

As a "casual", seeing the small reward scale makes this less appealing for me to play. I know I won't win enough to make it worth it, but seeing it spelled out by the game makes it even less likely for me to invest. Strange choice.

3
TJ_Garland•

True casuals aren't around enough to care about positive EV.

1
Dimitime•

You know a better way to keep competitive players out? By having it be an unranked queue with no rewards.

9
Xalara•

They need to make all constructed queues not affect your rank. The only thing that should affect your constructed rank should be the general competitive queue.

2
Evochron13Dimir•

That's an answer sure... but not one that makes cascading sense seeing as how the non competitive players are the ones who'd struggle most with being rewarded/wins in the first place. This reward system just makes the poor get poorer while the rich don't play out of no value.

2
AintEverLuckyBoros•

oh OK, my mistake. maybe my brain just blanked out on that, and my headcanon became "they never revisited it" because that was more agreeable than the truth

1
TJ_Garland•

we hope the reward structure will keep competitive players out of these formats

With a boycott by players here, the devs will achieve the goal.

The players knowledgable enough about the reward structure to dismiss it are more than casual players. They likely have achieved a bigger card pool though their focus on efficient rewards. Not having this group participate in these events will likely give the true casuals a better experience.

So just play into the Devs' hands.

0
thrillho7•

I don't think that's true. There are assuredly plenty of casual players that see building their collection as the main drive to play the game (it is certainly true in hearthstone). And on the flip side, I'm sure many 'competitive' players don't care about collecting cards beyond the most powerful ones that go into popular meta decks.

You don't need to be a hardcore player to be able to do basic math and see the cost vs reward of these events are bad. Furthermore, casual players are less likely to play enough to have the surplus gold to play these events regularly.

1
TJ_Garland•

There are assuredly plenty of casual players that see building their collection as the main drive to play the game

People have different ideas of what 'casual' means. What is significant is how Wizards defines it (since they design the parameters of the event/reward). You may think that players who see building collection as main drive are 'casuals", but that may not be what Wizards think of for the purpose of the events. This is what I infer from Wizards' event design parameters.

0
formlessforceOP•

I agreed in theory that it was going to be bad, but in practice it's really glaring. The mode makes me want to play but the price makes me want to sign out. They can find a better balance.

8
AintEverLuckyBoros•

true talk: I just did two Exploration runs merely to try it out. first went 1-2 with my mono-Red midrange; then went 2-1 with a GU Merfolk/Nissa deck I brewed up just for the event

so I paid 1200 gold, got back 200 and an M19 pack with Graveyard Marshall as the rare, plus some rando ICR. My curiosity is satisfied yet I'm still ticked at myself for delaying my next QD by a day or more (FTP BTW)

6
IJourden•

I'm really confused by this. I love the idea of the format, but even if I make the perfect deck that crushes and I win every single time, all I'm really getting as a reward is a 500g discount on buying M19 packs?

I'm spending 500g minimum on what is at most three games? Yikes. Even with a 100% winrate, I'd bankrupt myself in a day playing this. I really want to try it, but it's not worth torching all my future limited entries for it. I don't see why they couldn't just use the same prize structure they used for Singleton. If they were worried about people being competitive about it, they could have flattened the prize pool, shaving a couple hundred gold off 6 and 7 wins and distributing it to the lower tiers.

If I'm playing casually, I want my gold to go farther. Singleton gave me the chance to play minimum 3, maximum 9 games for 500 gold, with some of it returned to me. Now they want me playing Exploration paying 600 gold for minimum 2, maximum 3 games, and less of the gold returned? Ooof.

Plus, even if you're casual, going on a winning streak is FUN. It's fun to be at 3 wins and 2 losses and see if you can squeeze out one more win to break even. It's fun to be at five wins and 2 losses and see if you can make it to the end. Hell, it's even fun to lose your first game and see how far you can go starting down a game. With exploration mode, whether you win or lose, you hit the "game over screen" way too fast.

I'll be putting my proverbial quarters in a different machine, thanks.

11
amistfromhell•

This mode seems to be attracting those with Turbo Fog decks. Dropping 4-land by T2 is just putting that deck on the express lane to infinity. No thanks.

11
IJourden•

Maybe the one upside to this is that if all the turbo fog players go play their own format and leave the rest of us be, it's better for everyone.

2
mertcanhekim•

I'm lucky enough to have over 20,000 gold saved up, so I can keep throwing myself at it

Don't. If you dislike the prize structure, don't participate in the event. The only way to make sure they change the structure is to not play. Then they'll realize it's not working and make changes.

10
longtimegoneMTGO•

I'm lucky enough to have over 20,000 gold saved up, so I can keep throwing myself at it

Your words say the reward structure needs a lot of work. Your actions tell them that it's fine just how it is.

If people ignore the terrible value and pay for these events anyway, that is going to speak much louder than the complaints.

10
[deleted]•

[deleted]

1
formlessforceOP•

I don't "think" I'm saying that at all. I'm saying I would play significantly more if there wasn't such a feel-bad gold investment up front. If it cost less for even lower rewards, I would spend more of my gold overall. If it was free with no rewards, like quick play, that would be even better.

I think calling for a total boycott is pointless for exactly the reason you mentioned. That image speaks for itself. But I thought I'd make a measured post where Wizards can see it explaining that I want to play this mode but the current buy-in is more than it's worth. I've barely played it at all so far. I wish that weren't the case.

2
TJ_Garland•

You aren't going to be popular here pointing out the obvious.

Just let people circlejerk to their content.

0
gizmomcs•

Make them free entry and with a weekly one time Quest reward. There you go solved all the problems for you WotC pm me to hire me.

8
SpencatroMTGO•

Ben Brode, is that you??

3
mertcanhekim•

Hard to tell. For a conclusive evidence, I need to hear him rap about the next expansion.

2
formlessforceOP•

I love this idea. Who knows if this structure would get enough players to keep the matchmaking going, but I'd like to see them try it and find out.

2
JeranimusRex•

That's the same structure of the Tavern Brawl in Hearthstone, you just need to win once to get a free pack out of it, but you can keep playing afterwards. The queue for that is usually pretty healthy while the event is up.

3
kombucha8•

The rewards do not need to be fixed. The entry free needs to be fixed. HUGE difference.

8
Manuel777Mox Amber•

So their idea is , make shtty pricing for casual events. They should make it free then

7
pnchrsux88•

Making it free means the event will have a positive EV. A positive EV means compeititive grinders will flood the event. Poor casuals will have no chance.

-1
MaxAddams•

free with minimal rewards, like an uc each, capped at 2 or 3 per day.

2
pnchrsux88•

So want does Wizards get out of this that is better than what it currently has set up?

I see the current system as more lucrative for Wizards and provide a lower powered (with enfranchised players staying away) environment for casuals. Casuals may not win much anyways, but they likely will be more competitive than with the enfranchised around.

-1
-Omni•

I had exactly the same impression: the mode seemed extremely fun, but if you go 0-2 as a new player it feels awful.

You can't afford to try it more than once a day, and if you do you risk losing any chance at progress.

6
erlib•

I had fun and even won once. I'd like to keep playing, but I believe I'll just quickly lose again. So, at these prices, never again Brewer's, Singleton, and Exploration.

2
pnchrsux88•

Anything that nets you negative returns feels awful. Unfortunately, expecting to net a positive return more often than not is unrealistic. Wizards needs to cap the rate of acquisition in order to make money.

1
wujo444Unesh Cryosphinx•

New "Casual" queues are too expensive, payout is terrible, each run is too short and you should avoid playing them to send clear message to Wizards that they "mucked it up".

5
sargartNissa•

Yeah, i want to play this mode a lot and try to build good decks within the new ruleset as it seems super fun for me, but with these rewards i cant force myself to waste at least 500 gold each 2-3 games basically without any rewards.

3
WaffleSandwhiches•

Make the first entry each weekend free for everyone and a lot of these complaints go away.

3
Zen_21•

I played 4 times today, won two lost two, in the end got 2 packs 2 uncommons and 350gold for my 2400 gold. Which makes 2050 gold for 2 packs and 2 cards. So each pack costed me around 1k gold anyways. And now Im out of gold so I cannot play more. Fun mode tho.

3
WHAMwich•

Right now the MTGA teams philosophy is that every single method of play must directly generate profit by encouraging pack sales, if a game mode doesn't do this they are putting it behind a paywall that taxes people for playing. Instead of emulating successful free to play games by drawing in players with accessible play and then making bank from cosmetics and time saver purchases from a large number of people they are discouraging new players and trying to milk the existing ones for every penny they can.

3
zeroGamer•

I was super excited to try this out, and then I realized I have basically no Explorer cards.

¯\(ツ)/¯

2
TaintedUtopium•

IMO Charge us 100 gold with no rewards and ill burn all my gold on it. As is, I can either draft every 4-5 days, or play a cool event once a day. I'm leaning towards draft.

2
OwlsParliament•

I've played it a few times. I'm more of a casual player (I tend to go 1-3 at quick drafts, bronze tier), so I enjoy it as a quicker way to earn a pack than drafting.

2
Dirty_Beach•

The problem I have with it is that even at maximum wins, you can't continue playing the queue. You'll eventually (and rather rapidly, as it stands) run out of gold because the reward is a pack instead of your buy-in refunded.

2
formlessforceOP•

Right! It's not that I don't think the pack is a good reward (that's a different conversation), it's that I want to keep playing Exploration and the game makes it impossible.

1