AMA (9/16-9/23): Dave Foss, Vice President, PDGA Board of Directors

Fellow disc golfers: A big thank you to the r/discgolf moderators for allowing me this opportunity to reach out to our community.

One of my goals as a member of the PDGA Board of Directors has been to improve and increase the opportunities to receive meaningful feedback from our community. I would like to use this AMA to answer questions you have about our current initiatives and for you to offer up ideas or suggestions for the future of our sport.

If you have specific questions ("what ifs?"), please direct them towards our volunteer committees, which can be found here: https://www.pdga.com/volunteers/committees.

I'll be checking back periodically and will be answering your questions on the 24th and 25th.

Thanks, and have a great next round!

Posted Sep 16, 2018, 9:06 PM UTC

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_McDrewPDX - RHBH - barely intermediate•

This was a pretty hot discussion on r/discgolf after the Ledgestone open.

Are you ok with Tournament Directors using their position as TD to promote religious or political messages?

I think u/CallMeNutty put it best in that thread:

Setting aside whether or not I agree with his beliefs, I found this message from Nate really disappointing, and I wish I hadn’t seen it to be honest. Disc golf and the effort to grow it should prioritize inclusiveness. To me, this means there just isn’t room for hate speech or establishing any particular political or religious creed in an official capacity or even in a way that seems official (like this caddy book). It sucks to know that there are people and especially children who have seen this message from Nate on an official production and now may feel even just a little bit less welcome or just a little bit more like an outsider.

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David_FossOPPDGA Board of Directors•

I personally have not and would not include an overtly political or religious statement in my tournament literature. That being said, there is nothing in the competition manual that outlaws such a statement from a TD.

The question that I would ask is, "Is there an aggrieved party in this situation?" If a religious or political post by a TD leaves its participants feeling unwanted at a tournament, then that creates a problem.

I would suggest that if a player believes that the actions of a TD have created a situation that makes said player uncomfortable or negatively affects their performance, they should complete the TD feedback form and address their concerns with the TD. You may also consider contacting the competition committee with your concerns, identifying the reasons why you believe that posts such as these would create a negative environment.

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CallMeNutty•

With all due respect, this is such a weak response from someone actually in a position to make a difference. You said yourself that you “have not and would not include any overtly political or religious statement” in your tournament literature, and I’d bet it’s because you understand why doing so is problematic. So why not be a proponent for codifying restrictions? Why not defend a position that clearly benefits the sport and its growth?

You dance around this issue by asking if there’s really a problem and framing the situation as if it’s the responsibility of any aggrieved player to make it a big deal if they truly are bothered. You’re expecting and counting on the natural inclination of a person to ignore a “minor” inconvenience for the sake of their livelihood. To claim something is not a big deal unless someone makes it a big deal is entirely disingenuous.

To answer the question you posed, “Is there any aggrieved party in this situation?” I’ll list what I can come up with, and you tell me if you think any of these parties are aggrieved:

  • Players that are uncomfortable – We can assume (and even know for a fact) that many players are uncomfortable with the inclusion of religious proselytism in the tournament literature. So far, they seem to have ignored the issue for various reasons at least via official channels. I’d guess most reasons have to do with maintaining focus, concern for reputation and anonymity, preserving the opportunity make a living doing what they love, etc. Does it affect their play? Possibly though unlikely. Does it make them feel less welcome or less enthused about the sport and their mission? Probably – this is a problem.
  • Advertisers and contributors – Most professional organizations, and all that are taken seriously on a large scale, understand that overtly political and religious presentations are problematic. This means they will avoid partnerships where they can be perceived as espousing particular political and religious sentiments. The PDGA can’t expect big contributions from professional outfits without assurance that they will restrict problematic messaging.
  • Spectators and fans – Based on the response online, we know that many fans and members of the disc golf community have a problem with the religious messaging. Alienating fans is obviously a quick path to failure for a sport and industry that at present is entirely still at the grassroots stage. Fans buy discs, disc manufacturers promote product via tournaments and player sponsorships. Fans get excited and buy discs, and the cycle continues. Hopefully somewhere in there advertisers notice there is money to be made and the sport can explode. But the essential ingredient is enthused fans willing to spend money. Alienating fans with distasteful messaging breaks this cycle. Personally, I am boycotting renewing my PDGA membership over this very issue, and I encourage others to do the same until the PDGA becomes proactive in this area.
  • Prospective fans and players – I said before that it sucks to know that there are people and especially children who have seen this message from Nate on an official production and now may feel even just a little bit less welcome or just a little bit more like an outsider. Disc golf, like all sports, should be inclusive and tolerant, and if we are being honest with ourselves, we’ll admit that the sport in its current state is uncomfortably homogeneous demographically. This holds true from the player base, to the spectator base, and to the board and staff of the PDGA itself. Let’s make it a priority as an organization to do better in this regard and to “grow the sport” for people rather than just dollars.
  • Disc Golf and the PDGA – For all the reasons listed above, the sport and organization is made weaker as a whole if we fail to correct the problem now. In the long run, the sport itself is an aggrieved party if its success and growth is stifled because the dominant governing organization is unresponsive and/or unwilling take necessary corrective action on this issue. I’m discouraged to see officers of the organization (you) dance around this issue, and even more discouraged to see officers of the organization (Nate Heinold) actively engage in problematic messaging.
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[deleted]•

[deleted]

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_McDrewPDX - RHBH - barely intermediate•

The question that I would ask is, "Is there an aggrieved party in this situation?" If a religious or political post by a TD leaves its participants feeling unwanted at a tournament, then that creates a problem.

I want to comment that I think the above statement is the most important thing you said. It isn't about the TD's intent. Its about the effect on the participants.

I also think that there's a reasonable "if this is a problem, we'll address it, but we also need to see if this is an actual problem" argument that you've made. Nate is the example I have of this behavior, but if its JUST him, and he stops, then this probably doesn't need to be codified. I respect your desire to get more information from the affected parties before taking further action. Thank you for your response.

0
David_FossOPPDGA Board of Directors•

I would consider that "if he needs to stop" is also an option. This is at least the 4th year that Nate has included a message similar to this at Ledgestone and there were no prior concerns raised to him in previous years. I would again focus on the aggrieved party - if there was a player at Ledgestone who was made to feel uncomfortable, they should contact Nate and share their position. If the complainants were solely on the internet and no players themselves were actually affected, is there a problem? The key here is some honest communication.

4
_McDrewPDX - RHBH - barely intermediate•

The key here is some honest communication.

Thank you for yours. I'm glad you're on the board.

1
Toad32•

To what message are you referring?

1
_McDrewPDX - RHBH - barely intermediate•

The image contained in the reddit post liked to by the word “This”

2
WTFARSENAL•

This has nothing to do with current DG initiatives or furthering the sport. It’s your reaction to one TD’s religious message.

-8
_McDrewPDX - RHBH - barely intermediate•

Yes it does. People feeling alienated and choosing to not start or stop playing disc golf because they feel politically or religiously alienated explicitly hurts "furthering the sport".

Your argument rests on either denying that those people exist or saying that they don't matter. Neither is an attitude that will help grow the sport.

1†
SplitVision•

Do people really feel alienated by a sign that expresses a different view than their own, politically or religously (or other)? If so, how common is it for people to feel alienated by such a message? I ask because I personally find it difficult to relate to it.

3
cheesethin•

how common is it for people to feel alienated by such a message?

It really really really depends on what 'the message' is. And whether 'the message' directly and personally affects you.

Some Christian churches actively discriminate against LGBT people.

1
WTFARSENAL•

Okay, I’m gonna take you seriously. What do you want the PDGA to do about this?

1†
_McDrewPDX - RHBH - barely intermediate•

Within the current means of enforcement for negative behavior by tournament directors(edit: or other officials), rules and enforcement for endorsing a religious or political viewpoint (edit: in an official capacity) should be added. The political or religious viewpoint should not matter. The penalties should be in line with other infractions for negative behavior.

-1†
PM_ME_UR_FACESHOTS•

Are there are any plans to secure TV contracts?

I’ve seen small bits here and there, but I think the events are professional enough now. Also, with big brands like Adidas now sponsoring athletes, I believe the sport is ready for some FSN or local sports channel coverage.

What is the next step to put disc golf on par with other sports?

I see Cornhole on tv 100x more than disc golf. Is the Board of Cornhole doing more to advance their sport than disc golf?

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David_FossOPPDGA Board of Directors•

I would suggest contacting Matt Gregoire, Steve Hill, and Mary Sicard, our Media Manager, Media Coordinator, and Marketing Director, respectively. They are doing a great job and would be the ones who could most thoroughly answer your question.

I did discuss some of the barriers of getting disc golf on TV with a fellow member of my local club who does field production work with an international news network as well as running his own production company. To cover a disc golf event in a way that would present the sport in the best possible way to a wide audience, a production company would need to make significant initial investment in equipment including multiple fixed and movable cameras. On top of that, a regional sports network would need to be sold on the profitability of airing the event, recouping their investment via advertising or event sponsorship.

Don't take these barriers as a hard "no" on the subject, but we as a sport need to account for all of the economic factors in play that could prevent disc golf from appearing on television on a regular basis.

2
KenDurfDenver, CO - RHBH/FH•

In every other sport, on the serious strages, players are not expected to officiate their own rounds. Officiating rules with your competitor can be.... awkward. With the massive increase in participants, are their any plans to further legitimize our sport through umpiring?

6
Toad32•

No please.

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David_FossOPPDGA Board of Directors•

Our sport is run similar to ball golf in that cards call their own penalties with one or more field marshals or tournament officials available. I don't believe that umpiring is feasible for our sport at this time as it would require too much manpower to be applied equally.

6
Fustercluck25MatrixFTW•

With all of the amazing coverage of Tour events and the larger tournaments, it's becoming painfully obvious that calls are not being made with regards to the little things that all players should abide by. For example, Seppo with a foot fault on 7 at Worlds.

https://youtu.be/chAaFFEFQ2E?t=19m51s

​

Now, I am in no way advocating for retroactive penalties, but I am curious where the PDGA stands on egregious violations that are filmed for the world to see. I'm not saying it was intentional, clearly we've all been there, but this is just one example of many that I've seen on recent coverage where cards just refuse to address the violation. The PDGA expanded the zone behind the marker to alleviate this, but it still happens.

​

Also, why does your dog hate me?

​

Edit: Seppo even looks down at the marker after the throw as if to acknowledge that he faulted. No call.

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David_FossOPPDGA Board of Directors•

From the perspective of a fellow disc golfer, I share your frustrations. As a viewing public I believe there's an expectation that the top players in our sport should not only be exemplars of form, accuracy, and distance, but also of professionalism. When the top players aren't meeting that expectation, there's going to be disappointment.

There are options that could be available to the PDGA to better enforce rulings on the lie. Some examples include ...

  • Eliminating the follow-through except off the tee.
  • Have video coverage of every pro card to allow for video review
  • Eliminating mini marker discs and playing the discs as it lies for a more discernible target
  • Have a volunteer marshal follow every card

Each of these options could help alleviate this concern, but do so in a way that is either infeasible, unpopular, would require a fundamental rule change, or all three. I personally would not support any of these options, and I sincerely hope the Board isn't put in a position where we have to address foot faults in these ways.

For me, what it comes down to is that all players, especially those who are at the top level of the sport, need to set an example by understanding the rules, following the rules, and displaying a willingness to enforce the rules on themselves and on other players.

And my dog doesn't hate you, he just hates it when you come in the house.

2